Does anyone out there have any suggestions or advice on replacing the frequently rusted out side sheathing on heavyweight passenger cars. We have the info put out by TRAIN several years ago that was a reprint of an old ICS course. This gives a couple of approaches,but we are wondering if anyone has tried any new techniques using different technology (not bondo). We have a CNR combine and a diner that have rot in the lower sides just above the rivet line in a few places and we want to come up with a long term fix if we can. Apparently this rusting was a common problem and had to do with the way the cars were constructed. They tended to sweat on the inside face of the sheathing as there was no way for water vapour to escape from the wall cavity. Any suggestions would be appreciated

grantf@apexmail.com

You could invest in a plasma torch to remove the rusted sections and a wire welder to infill with sections of new steel. Once the resulting joint is ground smooth, lightly bondoed and sanded, a long term and invisible (if done well) repair.

Plasma doesn't heat and warp the side sheets like torches will, and is much faster and easier than saws. You can keep the original riveted areas rather than replace the rivets and so forth assuming those areas aren't gone as well.

If the side sheets are already warped or bendy, just bend the new section to match and weld it in.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Chances are that if your side sheets are rusted through, your side sills probably aren't much better, bet I have run across exceptions to this. Further, I can just about guarantee that the structural uprights, or "studs", if you will, will be rotten (read gone) at least part way up. Sometimes it can be 6 or 8 inches, but I have seen some extend 18 inches or more, all in the same car and sometimes in no particular pattern. If your steel is good, say up a foot or so from the bottom, you might want to cut up 18 inches all the way down the plate to the splice or joint plate.

Once you are stripped, then you must evaluate the sills and uprights for integrity. Various forms of welded repairs and fabricated parts can be used with good results. For Amtrak-approved repairs, talk with a qualified inspector (Rob Mangels, Pete Messina, Steve Zuiderveen, Mike Ponicki, Harold Weisinger, et al.). Good idea to talk to them anyway, as they will make sure your repair is adequate, especially if there is ever a chance that the cars could get upgraded in the future.

Generally, you will be working with mild hot rolled steel (A-36 likely) and it is easy to weld. Depending on the construction methods used in your sill, you could be fabricating Z-channels and such. Further, how are you going to drive the rivets once you are ready to go back together? There can be a way around this with some planning, but it can be tricky. Otherwise, strip the interior where you will be working. Several of us in the biz have either done this with our own cars or with museum cars. Rob Mangels did a major job on the LV 353 regarding side sheets (aka girder plates) and side sills. I have done some of it on TVRM ex-Southern coaches, and hope to be doing it to my car this winter. We will replace the entire side sill and girder plates to the belt rail. E-mail me for more info and I will be glad to share what I know and discuss your project.

Michael Brown
Owner, New Wreck 400 (er, New River 400)
TVRM

> You could invest in a plasma torch to remove
> the rusted sections and a wire welder to
> infill with sections of new steel. Once the
> resulting joint is ground smooth, lightly
> bondoed and sanded, a long term and
> invisible (if done well) repair.

> Plasma doesn't heat and warp the side sheets
> like torches will, and is much faster and
> easier than saws. You can keep the original
> riveted areas rather than replace the rivets
> and so forth assuming those areas aren't
> gone as well.

> If the side sheets are already warped or
> bendy, just bend the new section to match
> and weld it in.

> Dave


Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum
newriver400@cs.com

If you are lucky, and have a Pullman product, chances are a lot of the sheating was attached using round head machine screws, the slots being filled with body putty before painting.

Those "rivets" on each window post which look like their working their way out have been installed that way purposely for the cinder deflectors.

Never store a car, wood or steel, next to a building because the side next to the wall never dries out completely.

When you get inside the wall, if the insulation says UNARCO on it, it's very likely the A-word. Horsehair was also very common.

Michael brings up a good point - you do need very much to consider the internal structure if the car will be used in service. I had assumed you were doing a cosmetic job.

Share some details and you might get better advice.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

If this were documented as the project went along, it would make an excellent how-to-do-it article for RyPN... There are dozens of such rusting cars, and I don't think the average enthusiast who might consider tackling their restoration has a clue of where to start.

bobyar2001@yahoo.com

> If you are lucky, and have a Pullman
> product, chances are a lot of the sheating
> was attached using round head machine
> screws, the slots being filled with body
> putty before painting.

> Those "rivets" on each window post
> which look like their working their way out
> have been installed that way purposely for
> the cinder deflectors.

> Never store a car, wood or steel, next to a
> building because the side next to the wall
> never dries out completely.

> When you get inside the wall, if the
> insulation says UNARCO on it, it's very
> likely the A-word. Horsehair was also very
> common.

CAUTION!!
That insulation can and does burn. I would NOT ever use a torch or even a grinder to cut the sheets or rivets off of the car. We had a fire in the Soo 1257 at Mid-Continent started by grinding off one of those screws. This required the fire dept. and much angst and chopping of holes in the sides to get water in and quench the burning insulation.
The only safe and also the best method of removing the sheets is with an air hammer and chisel. A #3 air hammer can remove a rivet head in about 8 seconds (much faster abd cleaner than grinding) and will not cause a fire. Use a ripper tool in the gun to cut the side or else a sawsall.
The round head screws you mention are hardened and will be a much harder fight. you can then drill out as much of the softer core of the screw as possible and then punch them out using the air hammer. I bought a large drift punch (Endries I think) at Fleet Farm and turned the back end down to fit the air hammer. It has worked fine and hold up well.
We then used a special fastener rivet with a round head but it has a pin extending through which spreads the end when driven flush with the head. Like any rivet, you must have a good fit on the hole and the right grip length.
Hope this helps.

fwantz@pressenter.com

Tell me more about your drive-type rivets. Are they large enough for the side sill ones or not? I investigated having them made, but had difficulty finding a manufacturer with any interest, even for a large quantity of 25,000 or so. The local specialty fastener guys helped me make up some samples to send out for quoting, but never turned up anything. What size(s) are you getting? Are the head profiles the same as the old ones (a true round head?)? Who is you supplier? I know that at one time these were made for just this type of repair, as I have identified previously repaired areas of my car where they were installed as well as on some the Southern coaches at TVRM.

Any help would be appreciated.

Michael Brown

> CAUTION!!
> That insulation can and does burn. I would
> NOT ever use a torch or even a grinder to
> cut the sheets or rivets off of the car. We
> had a fire in the Soo 1257 at Mid-Continent
> started by grinding off one of those screws.
> This required the fire dept. and much angst
> and chopping of holes in the sides to get
> water in and quench the burning insulation.
> The only safe and also the best method of
> removing the sheets is with an air hammer
> and chisel. A #3 air hammer can remove a
> rivet head in about 8 seconds (much faster
> abd cleaner than grinding) and will not
> cause a fire. Use a ripper tool in the gun
> to cut the side or else a sawsall.
> The round head screws you mention are
> hardened and will be a much harder fight.
> you can then drill out as much of the softer
> core of the screw as possible and then punch
> them out using the air hammer. I bought a
> large drift punch (Endries I think) at Fleet
> Farm and turned the back end down to fit the
> air hammer. It has worked fine and hold up
> well.
> We then used a special fastener rivet with a
> round head but it has a pin extending
> through which spreads the end when driven
> flush with the head. Like any rivet, you
> must have a good fit on the hole and the
> right grip length.
> Hope this helps.


Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum
newriver400@cs.com

Just a couple of suggestions & comments:
Punch a few holes in the affected area with an air hammer. Squirt water in the holes to soak the area so that it doesn't start burning while you work. Asbestos won't burn, but usually on passenger cars it is used with another material such as tannery hair, paper, etc. Another popular insulating material is kind of a ground up wood pulp (it will smolder for days).
Unless an entire panel is to be removed, we cut out the affected area with an abrasive wheel, either with a gear drive circular saw or a die grinder. Spray water in the slit occationally so nothing gets burning (too badly) while you cut.
Use a rivet buster to knock off the old rivets (you could torch them, but again there is a fire hazard).
Generally I use roundhead screws, either slotted or allen socket head for patches and for areas where it is impossible to hot rivet without removing the car interior. As mentioned elsewhere, the slots can be bondoed. Round head screws are available in sizes up to 3/4", we choose a size that matches the old rivet head as close as possible.
To keep a little air circulating inside the walls, we drill 1/2" holes in the bottom of the side sill every couple of feet. Check back with me in 50 years to see whether or not this has done any good!
J.David

jdconrad@snet.net

Lots of good advice in previous messages. Let me stress two points. If there is interior rust, bondo patches will simply be pushed out as the rust continually "grows." And take warnings of fire seriously; we've started fires not only from welding, but sparks from die grinders. Dampening the insulation, etc., inside the walls is a good idea, but unless you have cut access from the interior, it's unlikely that the entire space and all insulation can be gotten wet. And remember, such materials may smoulder for hours without visible signs of fire. We nearly had a major diaster on a caboose restoration; fire was only discovered the next day.
Repairs to clerestories pose similar challenges. I don't know if this was universal, but we found, in restoring Pullman built (1926-27) AT&SF RPO 74, that the interior vertical "studs" between each clerestory window are wood, and easily set on fire by grinding, etc. On an older car, there's likelihood of major rust damage around clerestory windows, from water seepage, etc.
Ted Kornweibel, Supt. of Restoration, San Diego Railroad Museum

> Does anyone out there have any suggestions
> or advice on replacing the frequently rusted
> out side sheathing on heavyweight passenger
> cars. We have the info put out by TRAIN
> several years ago that was a reprint of an
> old ICS course. This gives a couple of
> approaches,but we are wondering if anyone
> has tried any new techniques using different
> technology (not bondo). We have a CNR
> combine and a diner that have rot in the
> lower sides just above the rivet line in a
> few places and we want to come up with a
> long term fix if we can. Apparently this
> rusting was a common problem and had to do
> with the way the cars were constructed. They
> tended to sweat on the inside face of the
> sheathing as there was no way for water
> vapour to escape from the wall cavity. Any
> suggestions would be appreciated


kornweib@mail.sdsu.edu

> CAUTION!!
> That insulation can and does burn. I would
> NOT ever use a torch or even a grinder to
> cut the sheets or rivets off of the car. We
> had a fire in the Soo 1257 at Mid-Continent
> started by grinding off one of those screws.
> This required the fire dept. and much angst
> and chopping of holes in the sides to get
> water in and quench the burning insulation.
> The only safe and also the best method of
> removing the sheets is with an air hammer
> and chisel. A #3 air hammer can remove a
> rivet head in about 8 seconds (much faster
> abd cleaner than grinding) and will not
> cause a fire. Use a ripper tool in the gun
> to cut the side or else a sawsall.
> The round head screws you mention are
> hardened and will be a much harder fight.
> you can then drill out as much of the softer
> core of the screw as possible and then punch
> them out using the air hammer. I bought a
> large drift punch (Endries I think) at Fleet
> Farm and turned the back end down to fit the
> air hammer. It has worked fine and hold up
> well.
> We then used a special fastener rivet with a
> round head but it has a pin extending
> through which spreads the end when driven
> flush with the head. Like any rivet, you
> must have a good fit on the hole and the
> right grip length.
> Hope this helps.

By way of furthur info on our two cars that started all this: the diner is Pullman built in 1918 for Canadian Government Railways as the "Dunraven". The last service was for CNR as Cafeteria Car #496 and thereafter into work service. We have no plans to operate the car,thus most work will be cosmetic at this time. The other car was also Pullman built as Colonist sleeper #2730 in 1919 for the Canadian Northern Railway. The car was re-built by CNR in 1952 as a combine. This car could see occasional use on BC Rail and will be used on our on-site operating train,thus we will go the extra mile. Preliminary look at the car structure with the interior removed doesn't show any areas of structural concern as it was likely CN did what had to be done in 1952 when the car was converted. We are going over it inch by inch.
I would like to thank everyone who responded to my questions. We will get in touch direct with some of you as the project proceeds on the nitty gritty issues. Right now we have a lot to think about and will look at our cars with a new vision. Again,thank very much. If anyone wants to add more,please feel free to contact me direct.


West Coast Railway Association
grantf@apexmail.com