| Railway Preservation News https://www.rypn.org/forums/ |
|
| Steamtown Visit-1361 https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20089 |
Page 1 of 3 |
| Author: | co614 [ Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Steamtown Visit-1361 |
I visited S'town on Sunday and took the guided tour of the shop and roundhouse with 4 other tourists. It was my first visit in about 7 years and I came away with the following impressions; 1. WHAT A GREAT MACHINE SHOP- I couldn't help thinking how the men who labored so hard on our restorations( #759 in 1968, 2101 in 1975, 614 in 1979-80 and again in 1995, 2100 in 1988-89) would have given their eye teeth to have had a world class steam facility like this with just about every concievable tool/machine known to exist there,and in perfect working order. Plus radiant state of the art gas heating throughout, incredible lighting, abundant overhead cranes, plug ins to the shop air systems everywhere etc. etc. Not to mention a roof that doesn't leak and immaculate lavatories!! Upon further thought I came to the conclusion that they'd probably have found it TOO nice and would have voted to go back to an unheated,unlite, no facilities kinda place they were used to? Yea-right. When we were there at 11am Sunday all the workers save 2 must have been in church as practically nothing was happening. 2. Just from a few minute eye-balling I'd hazard a guess that the 1361 is still a LONG way from boiling water. Without knowing the average daily work force etc. its very difficult to say, but from the work I observed that's yet to be done there's zero chance she'll be together this calendar year and I'd guess that 2007 is very doubtful? I'd say that 2008 is even-money and 2009 I'd give a 75% chance. The work appears to be high quality using top shelve materials and I'm sure when she's done she'll be a beauty! The B&M Pacific is not as far progressed as the K-4 and who knows when she'll turn her own wheel?? 3. My last fantasy thought upon leaving was , can you imagine the work that could be accomplished in that facility if it were operated in the private sector( Strasburg, TVRM etc.)?? Doubt we'll ever know! Ross Rowland |
|
| Author: | Steam [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Steamtown Visit-1361 |
From what I can determine, the problem is money... no money translates to little progress. Only one or two people work on these engines. At that rate none of us will live long enough to see them run. All the fancy tools and equipment, and the antiseptic environment means little if there's no will to finish a project. That's what's really missing at Steamtown. It's a far cry from what we had all hoped would be the end product of moving from Bellows Falls to Scranton in 1983. It's been 23 years, and what, other than a fancy building, is there to show for it? Strasburg's shop puts them to shame. There are more locomotives "running" on TV monitors inside the museum at Steamtown than there ever will be in real life. |
|
| Author: | jasonsobczynski [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Steamtown Visit-1361 |
I can agree that steamtown is not at all what it could be...not by far. But, if memory serves me, the money is in place to finish the 1361. |
|
| Author: | superheater [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ross on Steamtown-Flame (Boredom) |
Mr. Rowland: Your opinions on Steamtown are well known. You are entitled to them, but there is a certain amount of tedium in the endless repetition. Assuming any other entity to be in charge is mindless speculation. If the 614 was running, I would accept your criticism as valid. Its not and whatever is being done @ Scranton, is still more than is happening with 614. Therefore, you are throwing stones from the comfortable confines of a glass house, since you contribute no time, no talent and no treasure to the effort. I didn't see you at any classes this spring, nor did I see you walking through the shop with a wrench. That goes for the rest of the critics of all museums- either your are participating and you are part of the solution- or you are part of the problem. There's an old adage about any j*ck*ss being able to kick down a barn, but building one requiring actual ability. |
|
| Author: | JohnCloos [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ross on Steamtown-Flame (Boredom) |
Gentlemen, Please allow me to step in before this turns ugly. Clearly opinions will vary on a topic such as this, and all participants stated opinions will vary based on personal tastes, and real or assumed accomplishments in the field of restoration/preservation/operation/etc. If we can agree to note given posts as opinion, or fact, as the case may be, and agree to disagree in the case of conflicting opinions,then it will make for a more meaningful discussion. I would recommend that if someone's opinion is not one you care to be exposed to, then don't read the post. As long as it's noted as opinion, or in Mr Rowland's case as "impressions", it's just that. Correct his (or anyone else's) opinions or impressions with the correct facts if applicable, it only betters all of us and adds to our respective knowledge base. Thank you John Cloos FoxValley (Moderator) |
|
| Author: | co614 [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ross on Steamtown-Flame (Boredom) |
I must say that some of what Mr. Superheater(or whatever his real name is) says has the ring of truth to it. Although 614 is currently not active I would bet that the clear majority of the rail preservation community would vote that I've earned the right to opine as a "doer" vs. an iconoclast? He's correct that my negative opinion of S'town is very well known and I have tried hard in the last several years to temper that opinion based in large part on the rationale that even though there's an increible percentage of its $5 million/year budget wasted on gross overstaffing and other nonsense, at least some of it does end up being spent on steam and that's more taxpayer dollars spent on steam then there would be if S'town wasn't there. I wouldn't be at all sure that someday the NPS won't be told to shed its most expensive facilities ( in terms of dollars per visitor) and if that day should arrive then S'town would certainly be one of those closed. I forget the exact numbers at this moment but the last time I saw the figures S'town was either #1 or #2 on the list of highest expense per visitor parks. Should that happen then obviously the opportunity will arise to see it run by an entity other then the Federal Gov't. Even if it ended up being owned by Lackawanna County(the most probable result) it would no doubt be leased by the County to a private sector operator as is their County owned ski resorts. In the interim, wasteful as it may be its still better than nothing. As to the funding for the 1361 project that comes mainly from State of Penna. grants via the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona and is seperate and distinct from Steamtowns money which comes through the NPS via the Dep't. of the Interior. I have not seen any recent figures for the 1361 project- but as of about 18 months ago I believe it was up to about $ 1.7 million and counting?? If that's correct then based on what I saw last Sunday they'll probably end up around the $3 million dollar level by the time it's able to boil water?? Interesting to imagine what could have been accomplished if the approx. $150 MILLION that's been spent to build/operate S'town had been spent in the private sector for loco. restorations/operations! Oh well it really doesn't serve much purpose to spend time on that fantasy as it's clearly water under the bridge and the high probability is that the Feds will continue as is forever? Fun to dream sometimes though!! Ross Rowland |
|
| Author: | Steam [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ross on Steamtown-Flame (Boredom) |
Having followed the exploits of Ross Rowland all these many years, and enjoyed all the fabulous steam excursions and such that he brought our way, I would say he has long since paid his dues to the steam preservation "community". We are all in his debt. I fully agree with what he has to say about Steamtown N H S. I had a chat with one of the museum staffers on my last visit. I told him that while it's lovely to be able to walk through the many displays inside the roundhouse and watch all sorts of steam action on the many TV monitors throughout, the real thing is rusting away outside. Except for the few trips to Moscow, there is precious little going on. Though lacking in such multi-million dollar facilities, the operation at Bellows Falls always provided a ride behind steam, every day of the week, in season. I certainly preferred those days to what is (not) going on at Scranton now. And I also asked the staff person where I could see something about Steamtown's founder, F. Nelson Blount. He pointed me to a rather remote corner where there was a small tribute in photos and prose. Hardly what one would expect for the man who started the whole thing in the first place, with his own money and optimism. No... I continue not to be impressed, and I have given money to the B&M 3713 project. I seriously doubt, though, that I'll ever see the engine in steam. It could have been built from scratch in the time that's been spent so far. |
|
| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ross on Steamtown-Flame (Boredom) |
Superheater, the problem with telling Brother Rowland to "put up or shut up" in a criticism of a rail preservation project is that, in many of the cases in question, neither Rowland nor you nor I nor anyone else would even be allowed to walk in and pick up a wrench/brush/torch/etc. On the other hand, depending on the willingness of the 614's landlord, we would probably be allowed to work on 614, which at the moment has "nowhere to go" anyway! And let's throw this out for consideration: if 614 were steamable today and Rowland offered it for Steamtown's use for free, would they be able to come to agreeable terms, or would it get bogged down in bureaucracy? I live within walking distance of a certain museum's restoration facility. With my flexible and variable schedule, I could easily drop things on no notice and go over to pitch in on some project. Ain't gonna happen--as far as I know, there's no provision for volunteer help in that place. The only place they want volunteers is as tour guides. I've personally seen serious offers of volunteer help for specific projects flatly turned down there, and at other places. Most places, indeed, won't accept your help unless you're a dues-paying member, and in some cases that even goes as far as non-risky stuff as word-processing, errand-running, website administration, or envelope-stuffing! Steamtown (and by extension Altoona) is another factor entirely. They're apparently doing the 1361 restoration "by the book"--a book that none of us seem to recognize. At Strasburg, it probably takes one person to change a light bulb in a car. Maybe two if a ladder's involved. With Steamtown, Federal bureaucracy would mandate putting it out for bid, factoring in women and minority contractors, environmental impact statements for the old bulb and the filament for the new bulb, an analysis of alternate energy sources, American content, ADA considerations, the consideration of private contractors, etc. I jokingly exaggerate (gad, I *pray* that I am), but you get the drift. Therefore the "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" reaction is a fallacy. I can (and do, professionally) criticize cheap mass-market beer as flavorless swill and direct consumers to better craft beers; I don't have to own or run a microbrewery to be "part of the solution". There are no easy answers for this syndrome, short of massive forcible re-education of the public and the near-elimination of litigation replacing baseball as the national pasttime. But, yes, as tiresome as the theme gets coming from Rowland, it is indeed worthy to consider the bad points along with the good of Steamtown, the RR Museum of Pa., the CSRM, and other "government-run" rail operations/museums as compared to private operations like Strasburg, Grand Canyon, Valley RR, etc. |
|
| Author: | rev66vette [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ross on Steamtown-Flame (Boredom) |
I only question why we have to be our own worst enemy in these threads. I too wish that I had a facility like the ones mentioned twenty years ago when I too worked on the ground. The numbers are in fact astronomical, and getting more so every day. So unreachable that I doubt whether anyone in the private sector would want to get involved. I see those numbers and apply it to the less than $10,000 we took in 1990 to totally restore an RDC and it's mind-boggling to say the least. But we're talking STEAM and lately it's been a no-holds barred approach, whether we like the numbers or not. The arguments about Steamtown are far too over-worn and it's time to move onward. If I recall correctly the initial vision of Steamtown floundered, and it was the Parks Service or nothing. Sure, Bellows Falls was neat, but so were other found memories that I personally can recall, like the MCC, The Lamoille Valley, all the 2100, 614, 759, operations, the list goes on and on. Neat operations, but gone forever. I support many of the groups mentioned here, and urge everyone else to do so also. |
|
| Author: | Erik Ledbetter [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ross on Steamtown-Flame (Boredom) |
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote: I live within walking distance of a certain museum's restoration facility. With my flexible and variable schedule, I could easily drop things on no notice and go over to pitch in on some project. Ain't gonna happen--as far as I know, there's no provision for volunteer help in that place. The only place they want volunteers is as tour guides. Our reliance on volunteers in this field reflects our club background. Most museums use professionals for restoration, curatorial, and registrar's functions. Remember we are unusual, not typical. Is there something wrong with one or more museums in our field trying to become typical? I submit the only test is: are the artifacts and the public served better each year than the year before. If you can do it with volunteers, fine. If you can do it all pro--also fine. Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote: it is indeed worthy to consider the bad points along with the good of Steamtown, the RR Museum of Pa., the CSRM, and other "government-run" rail operations/museums as compared to private operations like Strasburg, Grand Canyon, Valley RR, etc.
Many of these private operations use no volunteers, so surely going all-pro is not necessarily a problem, correct? |
|
| Author: | prr643 [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ross on Steamtown-Flame (Boredom) |
I’ve not been to the CSRM in recent years, but the RRMOPA is not high on my list right now. They have a terrific building, but most of the important steam pieces are currently outside, many of which where inside in the recent past (3750, 460, the L1, etc). They went out for asbestos removal several years ago and never went back in. They look terrible right now, with rust all over. I don’t care what their excuses are, they should be inside, right now, to prevent further deterioration. I know they only have limited room inside, but it is a disgrace that locomotives that once looked pretty good inside are now rusting away, again, outside. The people running things there must have no idea to the value of what are most cases the only existing examples of their kind. What do I find inside, a shay, a heisler, a climax, a fireless cooker, and way too much rolling stock. While these pieces are interesting, the vast majority of them are not one of a kind items. Most of the other locomotives that are inside now were inside before the extension was completed more then 10 years ago (The painted up GG1, the G5, the wood burner, the H3 etc) The whole motive for building the extension was to protect the locomotives that where outside before the extension was completed, what the hell is going on? Sure they don’t look their cosmetic best right now, but for every day they are outside they get worse. And now most of the yard is inaccessible without an escort, and the guy that is usually out there treats everyone like they are idiots, making for a rather unpleasent, rushed tour. I can’t look at the place right now it makes me so mad, the current management has to go. Maybe when Rendell goes, we can only hope. But my question is can 3750 take another 4 winters? I long for museam of only a few years ago, when most of the important PRR pieces where inside, painted and looking pretty good. You could browse the yard outside at your leasure, spending as much or as little time as you pleased, on several occasions I myself spent hours outside. I've been a PA reseident all my life, and have made trips to the RRMOPA since before I could walk, I've never seen the place in such sorry shape. It's just no fun to go there anymore, and I won't until things change. Anyway, a few thoughts, I’m sure many will agree, and many will disagree. BTW: At Williams Grove we will ALWAYS take new volunteers. We are a small operation, with only a short mile of track. But we have a lot of love for what we do, and we will be seeing our #643 back in steam this spring! You do have to join (the $5 membership to the steam association gets insurance coverage for us and you) but once you are a member we will put you to work. |
|
| Author: | rrmuseum [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ross on Steamtown-Flame (Boredom) |
A few quick things I would like to clarify here. One -- we use volunteers on 1361 and lots of them. There is rarely a weekend (some weekdays) that our crew does not spend at least a Saturday directing a crew of volunteers. ALWAYS something to do. Two -- other than providing space and the use of some tools (although the VAST majority of the tools and equipment you see being used by us at Steamtown belongs to our crew leader), the NPS has no oversight, responsibility, or say-so in what happens to 1361. It is not a Park Service project in any way. It is completely under the direction of the Railroaders Memorial Museum. I personally have great respect for the management at Steamtown and having been in government contracting and accounting for a large portion of my adult life, can appreciate the "culture" they operate within. It isn't easy. They have their projects and we have ours. We share space, advice and tools but 1361 is completely under our direction. Three -- the NPS (under a contractual agreement with the former management team in Altoona) spent $600,000 of the Museum's funding on 1361 from the time it arrived until 2002 when the agreement with the NPS and the University of Scranton "expired and/or was terminated" and a crew under the sole direction of the Museum assumed complete responsibilty. From that point until the end of January 2006, the Museum has spent $1.1 million on 1361. So, the total to date, spent under 2 different grant programs has been $1.7 million. Everyone has an opinion about what the restoration should cost and how long it should take and everyone on my crew knows I want the locomotive done yesterday. All of that aside, I can agree with Mr. Rowland on one point. The restoration of 1361 is first-class, top shelf, and none better and my crew deserves all the respect and congratulations that can be heaped upon them. Thanks |
|
| Author: | co614 [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ross on Steamtown-Flame (Boredom) |
The fundamental and critical difference between a Gov't. owned/operated facility(S'town) and a private enterprise is that the private enterprise MUST figure out how to attract sufficient revenues(visitors/riders) to meet its payroll and all other expenses OR it's gone!! There's no wonder that no one in S'towns management team is worried about their continuingly shrinking visitor #'s(last year they were approx.1/5th. the projections issued at their Grand Opening), because their paychecks and forseeable futures are completely predicated on staying out of trouble within the NPS beauracracy and maintaining the status quo!. That's how you reach retirement age and get that coveted pension. I understand that and can appreciate the system they're trying to survive within. If I were there I'm sure I'd be stuck with the same choices. As I said above despite all this at least a little of the money gets to the steam bottom line(witness the magnificient backshop) and we can all live in hope that someday the physical plant will pass to an operator who will make real use of its potential. Stranger things have happened. In fairness to the 1361 project it is important to remember that this loco. was chosen for restoration because of its historical connections (PRR-Altoona afiliation etc.) and not because of its physical condition. I dare say it would have been difficult to have found an engine in worse physical condition than the 1361 if you tried. Also, as in any restoration you really don't know the full picture until you literally "tear into it"! When they're done(some will live that long?) they'll have basically a 21st. Century machine in a 20th. Century gown. The facts surrounding the inordinant time and money that's being spent is a whole 'nother story-but what is-is and let's just hope that when it finally boils water that A. it has somewhere to run and B. it proves itself to be a reliable performer? In the interim it and the B&M Pacific make excellent tour props for the few visitors that do make it to Scranton. Ross Rowland |
|
| Author: | prr643 [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Steamtown Visit-1361 |
Steamtown has amazing potential. I do share the opinion that currently that potential is not being taken advantage of to its fullest. I support the operation, and wish them the best, but for as long as I’ve been going there (more then 10 years now, with an average of 1 trip a year, usually during the summer) every trip is about the same, and many run together in my mind. I’ve gotten some glorious pictures of some of the locomotives running around the yards, but they are always doing the same thing, over and over. Without the regular excursions there is even less to do. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had some great times at Steamtown, and will continue to go. 1995 was just a fantastic year, for someone who lives on the east coast the chance to ride behind 261 was terrific. I think they need to look at more guest locomotives, there are many potential locos out there. Of course the logistics and practicality of it is another matter entirely, but it is nice to dream. I have to agree with Mr. Rowland, the shops are awesome! So much good steam work could be done there. Anyone who has worked on steam will appreciate the resources that shop has the potential to offer. But one thing that Mr. Rowland did not mention is that the one of the reasons those shops are so well equipped is that Steamtown is a government operation, from what I understand the vast majority of the larger equipment and tools in the the backshop came to the park via military and other government surplus, much of it at little or no cost to the NPS. Please correct me if I'm wrong there, but that is the impresion I've always gotten from the rangers on the shop tours. Off-topic a little, I wish they would offer a shop-tour for the more "advanced" railfan. A tour that is a little more free-form, for people that have taken the shop-tour before, and may want to spend more of the time on the tour with specific pieces or areas of the shop, say for example the K4 or the BM engine. I'm not sure how much call there would be for such a tour on a daily basis, but perhaps for a small fee they could allow you to set one up in advance, don't know about you, but I'd be willing to pay to spend more time in the more interesting parts of the shop, with a small group of people with a longer attention span for the nitty gritty of the shops and locomotives then the average tourist. Just a though, anyone from NPS outhere? I Strasburg’s backshop has done so much more over the years with so much less space; it is amazing to think what could be done in Scranton given the money, the people and the time. I truly think that if there is any shop in the country that could ever bring a Big Boy back to life it would be Steamtown (I know, no place to run it, and will never happen under NPS, but I’m just saying that shop, with the right people, has the tools and the space to do it). I still have hope that things will get better there. I personally think some sort of marrage between National Park and private operation could bring great things to Scranton. The whole park service is suffering under the current administration, not just Steamtown. But presidents pass, and there are always people with new ideas. |
|
| Author: | superheater [ Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Alexander- You are wrong on this one |
neither Rowland nor you nor I nor anyone else would even be allowed to walk in and pick up a wrench/brush/torch/etc. Be careful when you make such a statement. I've been volunteering for over a decade there and spent Sunday learning how to adjust piston travel on the passenger equipment. Additionally, I worked on the K-4 several years ago, even got my picture in the paper for it. Maryland's a long way a way, but we have volunteers from Georgia, Florida, New Jersey, New York as well as Maryland. Care to stop by and test your assertion? |
|
| Page 1 of 3 | All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|