When completed, I am guessing that 1361 will be the most complete rebuild of a steam locomotive in the US since the steam age. It can be assumed that the PRR got every last penny of service out of 1361 before they plopped her on the curve. She did not owe anyone anything. What other locomotive rebuilds have been as complete. I have heard a bunch of stories about how locomotives were put away just after being shopped and so on. But what locomotives were total basket cases?

I seem to remember a story about some narrow gauge teakettle someplace that was dug up out of a riverbed after decades of being in the mud, and was rebuilt to operate. Wish I could recall the details. Maybe someone else can. I think it was down south someplace.

An aircraft analogy would be "Glacier Girl", the P-38 that was brought up from under 200+ feet of ice in Greenland, and rebuilt to flying condition!!! Nothing is impossible if you toss enough money at it.

This isn't strictly what you seem to be asking about, but I will nominate the following from Britain:

1) The building-from-scratch LNER A1 Pacific project, to the point of boiler construction, frame on wheels, tender all but done, etc.;

2) parallel project proposal to build a BR Standard "Clan" Pacific from scratch;

3) A project proposals to rebuild a common-as-anything-in-preservation GWR "Hall" class 4-6-0 into a none-survived "Saint" 4-6-0 (I think this one has progressed to actual reconstruction).

Tom,
There are several that come to my mind. Grand Canyon #4960 was not only rebuilt from the ground up but upgraded with features that really made her technologically a "1940's" Mike. Further upgrades have added to that.

Anyone here would have to nominate the two latest big rebuilds, NKP 765 and UP 844. I suspect that for shear dollars involved, 844 is the winner, hands down.

Don C.

New Zealand's Rogers K88 2-4-2:

http://www.wbfp.netfirms.com/k88_restoration.htm

Restored in 1974 after being dragged from the riverbank with 1902 boiler, which was later condemned and replaced with a new welded boiler:

Southern 401 at Monticello has a brand-new welded boiler, and all of the running gear has either been completely rebuilt or replaced. When it's done, it should win a prize.

Define "most complete".

Lots of locomotives have been "rebuilt" in the last four decades. To say that one was rebuilt more than the next one begs for a long argumentive discussion that is often the topic of after hour discussions at the TRAIN convention.

765 was rebuilt using its original blueprints. TVRM is working to rebuild Southern Ks-1 630 back to all the blueprints we could find. The folks in Altoona also have access to the Pennsy K4 drawings for the 1361. But does that make the quality of these rebuilds any better than what the NS did to the 611 and the 1218? Or what has been done in Savannah to Georgia Power #30 (aka the Goat). I think the proof is in the quality of performance after the rebuild. Mean time between breakdowns. Give me a locomotive that will run 50,000 miles without any problems and I would call that a complete rebuild.

The GWR 4-6-0 "Hall" to "Saint" conversion Alexander references has now progressed to rolling chassis stage. This consists of the main frames of the erstwhile "Maindy Hall" (ex-Barry Scrapyard), new earlier-style front extension frames, new larger-diameter driver and bogie wheelsets, and new inside steam pipe cylinders and saddle. The existing boiler will be retained, and an appropriate early smaller-capacity tender restored for use. The "Saints" were the ancestor of most subsequent British two-cylinder 4-6-0 designs; no "Saint" survived, but the "Halls" were basically "Saints" with smaller wheels, outside steam pipes, larger tenders, modern cabs and various other newer features, such as screw rather than lever reverse. The result of the present conversion will be a locomotive in approximately 1912-era condition, reflecting the application of superheating and top boiler feed to the class. This is a project of the Great Western Society.

The same organization recently began the conversion of another Barry wreck, "Willinton Hall" (of the later, "Modified Hall" class) into a late-1940's "County", another 4-6-0 class of which none have survived. This will again combine original frames with new drivers; here the existing cylinders and complete bogie are suitable, but the correct tender will need to be built from scratch. To recreate the nonstandard "County" boiler, which was the result of wartime production exigencies, the firebox and rear boiler course from a derelict LMS Stanier 2-8-0, with modifications, will be mated with a new front taper section. Unlike "Maindy Hall," "Willington Hall" had been robbed of nearly all of its running gear by the time it came out of Barry, so much of this will need to be machined from new forgings.

The resulting leftovers will not go to waste. A group at the Llangollen Railway, in Wales, has obtained the ex-"Willinton Hall" boiler (of the common Swindon No. 1 design carried by a number of GWR locomotive classes), appropriate-diameter drivers from a scrapped 2-6-2T, the remains of a correct tender and various other parts. With new main frames (already being built), new cylinder block, curved front extension frame from "Maindy Hall" and various other original or new-built components, this will emerge as a recreated Great Western "Grange," an 80-strong class of which there were again sadly no survivors.

As these projects continue to advance, a fair number of costly new casting patterns are being accumulated. Members of the Great Western Society have already observed that their "Saint" cylinder and wheel patterns are also correct for an earlier "County" class, a turn-of-the-century 4-4-0 design which was extinct by the 1930s. New frames will be needed, but I believe that an appropriate boiler from another ex-Barry wreck has already been reserved.

G.J. Churchward

George and Sandy's comments bring up an interesting thought. Many years ago, I read a comment, I think in "Locomotive and Railway Preservation" to the effect that "the cause of rail preservation would be better served if someone buried most of the derelect 0-4-0T's out there". Certainly, there are a large number of 0-4-0T's out there, and many are in truly sad condition. At the same time, there are very few surviving locomotives from the mid-19th century, and the survivors are much too rare to "use up" in regular revenue or exhibition service. Why not use a few of those saddletankers as a source of components for some operating replicas. The cylinders, valve gear, rods, suspension, portions of the frame, and a number of other smaller components would be very useful in constructing, for example, a New Jersey (later Grant) built 4-4-0 . Such a replica, with a modern welded boiler and other improvements to lower maintenance, could be both a revenue generator and an interpretive tool. It would also be small enough to be easily transportable, either by flatcar or truck, thus opening a number of "outreach" opportunities. Imagine TVRM running a "troop train" to the annual Chickamauga Reenactment with a woodburning 4-4-0 on the point. Or, simply displaying it under steam at local heritage festival. Food for thought

If replication is in order, it might well be better to simply fabricate the cylinders and saddle, designed with improved steam passages, and matched with the best designed combustion system that will fit into an appropriately sized boiler shell, mounted on lighter and stronger running gear incorporating roller bearings, force feed lubrication, and other modern things that won't detract from the appearance but will provide much better reliability, durability, maintainability, and operating economy. I just don't think recycling always makes sense in a longer view.

If Henry Ford was building his collection today, he probably would have chosen ground-up fabrication too.

Besides, tank engines rock - most railroad museums don't need much more to putter about the yard on summer weekends as demonstration tools for their visitors.

dave