My dad really enjoys watching Bill O’Rielly and the “no spin zone” on Fox news. Watching the show actually drives me nuts. My dad and I would spend hours upon hours discussing the “views” shared on such TV news shows. Night after night, debate after debate, nothing ever changed as a result of our pointless discussions.

As I grew a bit older, I realized that if the things that were being shared on TV were true, and I was indeed correct on my view of the issues, then I should attempt to either solve the problem or let it be. As a collage student I was elected by the student body to represent them as Vice President. In so doing I was empowered to act in a manner that agreed with the majority of my constituents. As Vice President my staff and I did a lot to change to the system and make the school we attended a better place. A very good lesson was taught as a result of this experience.

Mr. Matt Janssen, a long time friend of mine has been a long time pupil of Mr. L.D. Porta and his steam technology. Matt reminds all of us with-in our company quite often that Mr. Porta said, “Better to do than to say.” In other words, put up or shut up. Or, in a more politically correct way…….if you can discuss the problem and find a solution, you should be capable of enacting a solution.

What does all of this have to do with railroad preservation and Steamtown? Just as Bill O’Reilly has the right to sit on TV and discuss his view, he also has the right to leave his warm chair, run for office and fix the problems that he can so clearly explain to all of us in his “no spin zone”. And so it is true with Steamtown and the endless, pointless discussions that continue to overwhelm this page.

Mr. Rowland, as you and I have had many discussions before, I must ask you, as I would ask my own father……if you are so right about Steamtown and knowing that you have met and respected Mr. Porta; Ross is it not better to do than to say? If you are right, then go do it. Go fix Steamtown and make it better.

Mr. Superheater my hat is off to you. I take it from reading the posts that you work at or volunteer at Steamtown. Good job. Be a doer of the word and not a speaker only. Keep up the hard work and continue to press forward in your convictions to make things better wherever you may be….right or wrong!

Okay, Okay, “no spin zone” just answer the question. What does all of this have to do with Steamtown and preservation? My comments are as pointless as the countless discussions on this matter until and only until we remove ourselves from our chairs, stop typing on our computers and putting our capable hands to work and doing something more than just shooting our mouths off trying to impress each other. Either do or say. What say you?

Why don't we start a chain like this; "What I did at Steamtown today to make it better." Or how about this one; "How I ran for office so I could make Steamtown a better place." Maybe this one; "Today we organized a meeting with Steamtown to discuss our feelings and this is how it went....." Yes, I am implying that we do something more than just talk about it!

To the moderators of the page, I would have to say, feel free to stop this chain if it really has nothing to do with the goal of the page. However, if you stop this chain for lack of relevance to our preservation community, then I must ask, why do you allow the continued, pointless and repetitively argumentative discussions driven by the same people day after day that accomplish nothing, have accomplished nothing and will for the foreseeable future accomplish nothing just as this posting has most likely accomplished nothing more than consume a little bit of space on a great web page just as Bill O’Reilly consumes a little time on TV every night to discuss something that he has no intention of ever fixing. What a sad scenario on our society and our inability to solve problems.

I think tomorrow I will go to work and do something positive for our industry……want to come with me?

Respectfully working hard for a better tomorrow,

John E. Rimmasch

You're 100% right Mr. Rimmasch and thanks to your thoughtful and timely posting I've resolved to do two things effective immediatly.
1. I will refrain from any further participation in discussions of S'town as the preservation community by now is well versed on my opinions and the basis for them.
2. I will become proactive within those forums where it might make a difference in promoting the evolution of the Scranton facility into the private sector in as expeditious a manner as possible.
And I want to thank you for helping me reach these conclusions.
Ross Rowland

Dear John:
I don't wish to be arguementative, but prior to Steamtown becoming a National Historic Site, it was an independant 501-C-3 organization named Steamtown Foundation. On at least two occations (before and after I was employed there) Ross was on their Board of Directors. I think that he tried to make a difference there.
Fred Bailey, Steamtown Foundation's General Manager (and occational poster on rypn) might offer additional insight.
J.David

John Rimmasch

I agree with your comments entirely. I check this site every day to see what is “happening” in railroad preservation. It is much more interesting to me the things that are being done, not what isn’t or hasn’t been done. Positive information in most cases is more useful than negative comments. Now after being somewhat critical I should admit that I have not done my share in posting the type of information that I would like to see on this board. I guess that I have always felt that what I am doing or involved with would not be of much interest to other people which might not be the case. So now I will get off my soap box and try to make a positive comment.

The Steam Railroading Institute in Owosso,MI is doing some major work to Pere Marquette 1225. The work that is being done includes: new superheaters, several hundred staybolts , new corners in the firebox, new washout plugs and replacing pipes etc. that were removed to get to the staybolts and corners. At the same time they are getting a good start on the restoration of their 2-8-0. They also are developing a new web site that will have pictures and updates of the work that is being done.

http://www.mstrp.com

John Gramling

With due respect to Brother Rimmasch, I will reiterate what I've said elsewhere:

You are, in effect, calling for something that may not be possible.

I disagree with some of the manner in which Rowland has chosen to criticize Steamtown--indeed, I find myself gently nodding at the "glass houses" comment--but at the same time, the demands of "be a part of the solution" is strictly jingoistic cheerleading, as valid as "if you're not with us, you're supporting the terrorists".

It's possible that, in the view of Rowland and others, what you're asking him to do is bake better bread and dig better potatoes for those in the long lines in the old Soviet markets, when what he wants to do instead is open up an American-style supermarket. He is effectively advocating a form of regime change in Scranton, not introducing a bill to tweak the existing regime. We basically disagree whether it should or will happen; Rowland's comments seem to conclude that it's a matter of when, not if.

It's also possible that, in the opinions of Rowland and others, his actions ARE effectively "putting money where the mouth is" by working with the New Hope & Ivyland and other projects. In some ways, selling a private car to another preservationist or organizing the AFT or the Chessie Steam Specials is as valid an exercise as sitting on the Steamtown board of directors or whatever they have now.

Rowland has a perfect right to say "this current arrangement doesn't work, and here's why I think it doesn't work, and here's what I think can be done about it, and I don't want to work with the current operating model". You, the reader, can judge for yourself whether or not his criticisms are sour grapes or constructive criticism, and whether or not his remarks deserve consideration.

I've taken a stand myself against a well-regarded preservation project for much the same reason as Rowland has: I believe the current ownership/management plan dooms it to an inevitable, cancerous death, and every viable(?) alternative that has been proposed has been rejected. I feel that absent a change in their fundamental plan, I would be only "wasting my time" trying to stick my finger in a failing levee. Change the plan, and I'm there once a month pitching in.

And as I said before, I don't have to own a brewpub to criticize bad American beer. Sometimes, being a salesman or evangelist for a different course of action is as important as actually producing the alternatives. But, as political blogs, political action committees, and talk radio have found, to be effective you have to preach to someone besides the choir--and in our polarized political climate today, that has become all too rare.

"be a part of the solution" is strictly jingoistic cheerleading

Why? In some cases, like the guys that call into the local College football coach's show, saying "coach, the chickenhawks have a great defensive line, so will we be throwing to the tightend more?" (just once I want a coach to say "WE" won't be doing anything, the team will.), a person can only live vicariously (ok unless your are a genetic freak) through others-but here, we get to ACTUALLY DO IT.

If half the effort was spend (not just by one poerson, but ALL OF US) getting butts in seats and through turnstyles instead of the endless internicene warfare over paint, schedules, consists, collection policies, etc. ad nauseum, we would wonder what's running this summer, not whats NOT.

Finally, a little history lesson-the Steamtown Foundation was a private endeavor-it went bankrupt, even if it hadn't, there was no way it could've put a down payment on the hazmat mitigation, let alone rebuilt the roundhouse.

There's an old adage about public policy, politics is the art of the possible.
I'm as much a free market guy as anybody but my MBA and CPA let me see the business with clear focus on economic reality.

In the old days, the enemy was Sam Donaldson-an absolute blowhard IMHO, if there ever was one-and Bruce Vernto, who conducted a campaign of destruction because McDade went through the "wrong"
committee.

I don't mind criticism. There's much that's valid. I can tell you improvements are being made, slowly but surely-if they weren't I'd have left. Would I like to see 6 or 7 engines stoking away in the roundhouse? Hell yeah!- but now, we need to get butts in seats. Having people go to the media (without balance) and saying "it sucks" detracts from that.

Thanks John-appreciate the the fact I stimulated your thinking.

See, this is where I disagree.

The statement above infers that the pool of potential paying visitors to a museum/operation (and the opportunities to opoerate steam, etc.) is infinite. In strict theoretical terms, maybe it is, but the practical reality is that it's not. What do you suggest I do instead, go door to door in my neighborhood and talk people into going to the B&O Museum, the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, President Street Station, and the Ellicott City museum? Or that I buy enough shares of NS or CSX to be able to force them to run mainline steam?

The conversation in this forum amounts to the equivalent of a back-room meeting, forum, or cracker-barrel gathering of those involved in the preservation processes, NOT the public airings in MySpace.com, TrainOrders, TrainsMag's forums, etc. If we can't discuss the general policies and approaches to the problems here, where else CAN we discuss it? The ARM or TRAIN meetings only last so long, and are in a sense even more exclusive.

We are not spending time discussing CSX paint schemes or whether to host a railroad fair in the middle of nowhere in Texas. We're engaging in a serious discussion of policies and philosophies here, and these discussions and comparisons come in handy for any degree of introspection--what works, what doesn't, and why. Maybe, as the result of these comparisons, someone will come up with a better business plan for an operation that will ensure long-term success, or better, decide NOT to pursue a plan or proposal that would produce more long-term damage than benefit. If that actually happens, isn't that as important as dragging people through the turnstiles?

That would be Congressman Bruce F. Vento of Minnesota, who (ironically, knowing what is under the jacket of every old steam loco) died in 2000 of mesothelioma.

Steve
former Steamtown Foundation employee

See, this is where I disagree.

The statement above infers that the pool of potential paying visitors to a museum/operation (and the opportunities to opoerate steam, etc.) is infinite.

Not at all. I'm simply pointing out, people aren't being attracted to museums and historic/tourist operations as well as they could be. If you think that the market is tapped-then it changes your perspective.

"What do you suggest I do instead, go door to door in my neighborhood and talk people into going to the B&O Museum, the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, President Street Station, and the Ellicott City museum?"

It would be hard to improve on any aspect of the B&O museum from what i can see-the swiftness and effectiveness of the collapse recovery was astounding-we came in May '05. This isn't about cold-calling strangers-its about inviting friends and neighbors and one here or there will get the bug and fostering interest when its shown.

"Or that I buy enough shares of NS or CSX to be able to force them to run mainline steam?"

Sadly, I'm afraid consolidation and the threat of litigation have done mainline steam in, barring miracles.


The conversation in this forum amounts to the equivalent of a back-room meeting, forum, or cracker-barrel gathering of those involved in the preservation processes, NOT the public airings in MySpace.com, TrainOrders, TrainsMag's forums, etc. If we can't discuss the general policies and approaches to the problems here, where else CAN we discuss it? The ARM or TRAIN meetings only last so long, and are in a sense even more exclusive.

Agreed. But inevitably its a discussion of deficiencies which are measured against a dream. The vast majority of steam experiences in the future will be short runs, at low speeds. But everytime "banned subjects" come into the paper-its always "too long", "too expensive", "not historically accurate", "not enough", etc. You think that brings people in or plops them in front of the couch to watch another baseball game? Not to long ago, I saw somebody speculation about a small line-don't remember if it was here or elsewhere-maintaining power wasn't safe. If the poster knew something-they should be going to authorities-but more likely it was merely idle calumny.

Personally, I wish there was a place where we could take off the gloves and really have at it (VERBALLY), with the only rule being if you can't take the heat leave the kitchen. Unfortunately, that was tried at Chaski for a while and the results weren't good, so its clear somebody's got to try to cork the uncorkable.

I'm not much of a typist, sorry.

Mr. Rowland,

Congratulations! I wish you the very best in your efforts to change. Personal change is a vital part of life. As you well know this is a philosophy of my own as I strive to become better each day.

It is my hope that all of the readers of this board will know that if I can help, in a positive and interactive way......I am here (or anywahere) to do so, just sign me up!

My best to all of you!

John E. Rimmasch

The obverse of what you are saying is that with respect to that operation, it was run by a private organization, with the input/direction of a vocal advocate of removing it from governmental management and it became insolvent.

This is hardly compelling evidence to support the position that there would be substantial improvements, if only the operation were privately managed.

Living long and prospering, I hope!

Might a public / private partnership be designed to make better, more efficient use of a lesser tax provided subsidy, capable of providing a broader range of visitor-pleasing programming, and marketing it enthusiastically? We have, in the past few years, seen models of such partnerships that worked and didn't work, and probably have a basic grounding of how it might be best structured.

I have volunteered at another National Park, and seen firsthand how the bureaucratic impediments to getting jobs done inexpensively and effectively can burn out the best intentioned staff. If a bolt was needed, a quantity of bolts had to be requested, approved, passed through layers of management to purchasing, made part of a larger order to several vendors, bid, bid awarded, by then you forgot what the bolt was for. It arrived two years later. I drove to the local ACE hardware, bought one for 49 cents, and fixed the machine in an hour.

My ex, who came into medical school out of Chemical Engineering, believed that if you weren't part of the solution you were part of the precipitate. Makes more sense to me than the other - one can be an innocent bystander, neither solving or creating problems, after all.

dave