Does anyone have, or can you direct me to, any results of studies that relate to the advantages of having an operating train at a museum as opposed to a static exhibit only? I'm interested to see if there is documented proof of the line that attendance will be greatly increased at a museum if there is an opportunity to ride on a train, even if only a 10-15 minute ride. Does having an operating train that visitors can ride really increase visitorship? This question presumes, of course, that we are talking about a facility that is otherwise attractive, well maintained, and in a location that encourages visitation, and already has a relatively stable visitation without an operating train.

Thanks for your input.

Study - not here. But, we are an out of the way site located specifically to operate trains. Caution - once you start operations, 95% of your time and funds will go to keeping those trains running.

Don't have the reference handy to cite, but I recall reading an article some time ago that contrasted static with dynamic interactive exhibits.

Dynamic won.

General sense in my POV is that, it might provide a greater motivation for visitors to the areas attractions to choose yours rather than others in the same mix.

Many variables need to be considered - such as the nature of the demonstration ride itself. If it connects two visitor destinations at an impulse cost (in time and money), past interesting and pleasant views, much better than an hour at 5 MPH out and back past the rears of several junkyards and trailer parks. That will likely deter repeat visits.

Maybe it was a presentation I saw instead? Had to be within the past 4 years or so.

Next time you are in the Hospitality City by the coast, check out the interactive stuff at the newly opened Telfair Art Museum.

dave

IMHO, I would have to agree with Dave, based on my own experience as well as some obvious examples. Strasburg, WP&Y, Grand Canyon, and D&S come to mind. However, I think the key to success of any given operation is a combination of factors. The overall visitor experience, marketing skill and creativity, and location location and location all come into play. A recent success story has to be the O. Winston Link Museum. It is in a good, but not outstanding location from the standpoint of tourist traffic. However, it does a very good job of marketing across all sectors, and as anyone who has visited there can tell you, it has an excellent visitor experience, even though the only moving trains are NS freights out back. Cass has a similar attendance level, as well as a wonderful visitor experience. But, after 40 more years of word of mouth, the fact that "you can't get there from here" still has an impact. My recent experience as train crew on last fall's excursions on the Shenandoah Valley RR served to drive home the location factor. They were simple pull-pull "daisypicker" trips, with the only marketing being a website, printed brochures spread regionally, and a couple of newspaper articles. In 6 operating days with a 400 seat train, we hauled nearly 5000 riders. Not bad for a first time seasonal test operation. The SV happens to parallel a major north-south interstate, is 3 miles from the junction with a major east-west interstate, 15 miles from a major National Park, and is dead in the center of a newly designated National Historic District. The tourist industry is well established in this area. Sticking with examples in my geographic region, Spencer is one of the great success stories. They have a good location, are well marketed, offer a great visitor experience, and run trains on the grounds. Clifton Forge, Va. has a similar sized empty railroad shop complex, that bears a great resemblance to Spencer as it was back in 1978. While it is nice to dream about the possibility of Virginia having it's own "Spencer", the reality is that the traffic level on the nearby interstate is at that point a fraction of what there is near Spencer, and there are no other significant tourist attractions nearby to build upon. To succeed there you would have to be one helluva good fund raiser and marketer. I guess my point is, after all this rambling, is to be aware of your market and plan accordingly. If you are in Wayout, Wyoming, with no paved roads nearby, don't expect to have 100,000 visitors per year just because you have a museum with a train ride. Some folks down in New Orleans recently proved that even with a nice steam engine, very few people will pay to see the back side of warehouses. White Pass, Cass, and D&S have built their business over the years with great scenery and a positive visitor experience. Run a train if you can, it can be fantastic interpreptive tool for a museum, or a stand alone attraction if it's done well. Be creative in your marketing, and always work with the other attractions and historical organizations in your area. Your customer is a lot more likely to tell his friends about the "great town where he stayed in a B&B, took a train ride, went to a festival, and saw several nice museums" Don't make the mistake many organizations make, that of not looking outside your own fence.

Garys main point is in my opinion THE key point. Location,location,location!!! It 's certainly not the only factor but it's far and away the most critical. If you were to list all the currently open railroad themed attractions(static and non-static) by attendance #'s I'm sure you'd see two things stand out. 1. The highest attended facilities are in a location that has an established tourism industry and 2. those with a "live" ride to offer far out draw those that are static only.
Common sense tells you that you can have the best railroad attraction possible including a live portion and if you're located where people just don't(won't) go to recreate then your #'s are going to be poor. We all know of some perfect examples of this truth.
Ross Rowland

I fully understand the importance of location, location, location. But a museum can rarely do anything about their location and the sights along the right-of-way.

My premis was that you have an existing museum that is, and has been operating in the same location for over 30 years in a railroad facility (the "Old Depot"). It is downtown, near newly developing tourism facilities and near, but not quite within vision of a good-size river, with a trail network and a spur trail coming from the river trail to the museum.

The operation would be totally within sight of the depot, and would be a simple movement of loading at the depot, pulling to the end of the track through a turnout, shoving down the other track to a turnout, then back to the loading spot. Maybe you run the route twice. Similar to the Spencer operation, but considerably shorter and the two tracks are adjacent to each other rather than diverging like at Spencer. This would be an operation over maybe 2000 feet of track, at least for now. No turntable to spin you on, no fast running, just a simple demonstration ride for people (primarily school children) that might not otherwise get the opportunity to experience a "real train ride".

If we are talking about an operation that would probably be limited to Saturdays (which is the main public visitation day) and weekday mornings for scheduled school groups, is there a liklihood that we would see an increase in attendance on Saturday simply by offering this 10-15 minute "yard shuttle" experience in conjunction with the history museum, planetarium and static exhibits of restored railroad equipment?

My gut feeling is "yes", but then I realize I am a bit prejudiced. Is there any real added value here, or would we be spending funds to offer an experience that isn't worth the trouble and cost?

In a similar situation, if the opportunity were made available to operate this type of demonstration run, would you do it? Is the possible increase in attendance worth the hassle? And let's not get into any issues of staff/insular/non-insular/FRA compliance/insurance/etc. These are all important, but not what I am trying to get reaction to right now. Suffice it to say that the operation would be safe and compliant to the extent necessary, not some backyard shoestring operation.

Thanks again.

Will it draw more people in? That depends on your demographics, and your advertising. If your visitation is primarily local, I'd expect an initial increase, then a slow return to your previous levels once everyone that wants to has done it. In the long run your revenue stream won't change, but your costs go up.

If you're drawing tourists from I-75, and you advertise like crazy on billboards, maybe you'll get a sustainable increase - but the increased costs won't justify the increased revenue.

In my mind, it only makes sense if (a) increasing visitation at any cost is your goal, and (b) money is no object.

JAC

Simple answer - NO. The time and costs to go thru this operation would be better spent on signs, displays, paint, shows, public needs (bathrooms, a/c, movies), etc.

If I recall correctly, the local MSA is only in the 150,000 to 180,000 range, but the museum already pulls from a 38 county area in this part of the state plus parts of Alabama and Florida. Annual attendance is in the 20,000 to 25,000 range.

There is a possibility that operations could eventually extend to run over the bridge across the river and back to the museum by reverse route, but that is only a marginal increase in ride distance/duration. It would add a bit of "thrill factor" being on a fairly high truss bridge. Track arrangement in the area would permit a 1 hour or so run in a loop crossing the river twice on two different bridges, but that would involve two railroads and is something I don't want to complicate the issue with right now. Alot of that route would be through backyards and industrial areas, so not the most attractive scenery you can imagine, which is why I don't want to think about expanding to that level before fully evaluating the "yard shuttle" prospect, and whether there are real benefits or not.

Okay, but if that already is in place? The depot was recently restored with increased bathroom facilities, we have pretty good signage, etc. Cosmetic restoration continues on the static display equipment. A new, larger planetarium is being constructed, which is expected to increase visitation simply by being able to upgrade programming from the limitations of 1960's technology to the current digital standards. There will be classroom space and curatorial storage/exhibit design/construction space (and more restrooms). Remember, this is a 30+ year-old museum operation.

Still not worth it?

Okay, obviously I am pushing FOR this, but I want to be realistic and look at the pros and cons. That's why I was hoping for a study to review.

There are as many different types of operations out there as there are museums with operating equipment. From motorcars pulling trailers to all-day excursions, steam, diesel, open cars, caboose hops...you name it. If the equipment is available to haul a bus-load of elementary school children on this 10-15 minute shuttle, should we not attempt to offer the experience, and maybe develope some new generation of interest in railroad history and preservation? Or do we just say "it ain't worth it" and stick with static rail exhibits and good signs?

Stephen - now that I have a somewhat better idea as to just what and where, it seems to me you might be able to gain if the track is in place and in useable condition, you limit operation to when there is adequate market to make it pay (where is just one factor - when people want to ride and don't want to ride needs to be considered) and operate something like Berksy or a Doodlebug - cheap and easy on the track.

Might want to think about the in-street track as the basis of a trolley line running from the depot to the River Center as a means of pulling RC visitors into your facility.

dave

The Tasmanian Transport Museum (www.railtasmania.com/ttms/ ) in Australia is perhaps a relevant example, being a predominantly static museum site with good interpretive signs etc on various indoor rolling stock exhibits, plus a small collection of re-located railway buildings (signal box, station, etc.. or what you might call a signal tower and depot) that offers VERY short diesel railcar rides to provide a bit of interactive experience and some movement that can be seen from a nearby highway.

I don't know how their visitation fluctuates between operating and non-operating days and I suspect this would be very hard to measure unless the non-operating period was a full year or two. However you may want to contact them (e-mail address is on their website) to see if they have some hard data that they can share with you.

My gut feel is that thiis relatively low cost operation must make a big difference in the long term even though to an enthusiast their museum is a wonderful place to visit even without the ride.

Stephen, To make your decision on this operation, you need to take a good look at your start up costs. Do you have equipment that is useable for this operation without the major investment of capital? An operational switcher? Cabooses, a gon with benches, a decent open window coach, (reliable AC's ain't cheap) or combination thereof ? What impact will it have on your insurance? Will you need a separate policy, or will it be covered on your existing liability policy? What impact will it have on your staffing? If you have positive answers to the above, go for it. If it will cost you $50,000 or so, plus a bunch of volunteer man-hours, and triple your insurance premiums, I'd think twice about it. If your answers are still positive, I'd try a season or two of testing. Market to school groups, tour bus operators, club outings, etc, and tie in with special events, such as local festivals, before publishing a full season schedule. That way, your crew gets to build their skills without as much pressure, and you can measure the impact that it has on your bottom line. I've personally had good some good experiences with that type of operation. Since the end of the NS steam program, the Roanoke Chapter, NRHS, of which I am a member and former President of, has operated several "open houses" at their maintence facility in a local industrial park(definitely nothing that counts as scenery there....). We've hosted other NRHS Chapters, an N&WHS Convention, and the general public, and operated 1 mile long "excursions" at 10 mph with our N&W GP-30 and a couple of cabooses. But, we had equipment allready operational, and no additional insurance costs. Fuel and volunteer man-hours were the only additional expenses.

I concur with Gary. If you can do it with your current insurance and have suitable rolling stock already on hand, ease into it. As he suggests, a couple of seasons of open house events and school trips will let your crews build their skills without pressure. If you've got a small industrial loco, like a GE or Plymouth, that sips fuel, so much the better. Besides that, those critters have a "cute" factor that big and/or modern diesels lack. Go for it!

Thanks to everyone who weighed in on this, here and via e-mail. Still no factual study or statistics to work with, however, which was the original quest.

Many good thoughts expressed, and all will certainly be taken into consideration. Thanks much.

I found it interesting that, even within this group of preservationists and rail-oriented professionals the responses ranged from "don't do it" to "go for it", all noted with qualifications, of course.

Thanks again, and if this develops, perhaps I will be able to provide a case study for this particular situation. Say, you don't think there might be a grant available for this kind of study, do you? :>)

BTW, the equipment would likely be a small switcher, probably an SW, and probably a LW coach. At least that is what is available. Insurance is being investigated, but there are still many details to work out before anything can proceed to actual operation. This is all very preliminary...that's why I was hoping for a study to reference.

Dave, the in-street tracks were considered earlier (back in 1997 or so), but there didn't seem to be any interest on the part of the downtown redevelopment organization to lay the track necessary to go around the block to the Riverquarium (as it is officially known). Part of this route would be original alignment of the short lived trolley system here. More recent development in the Sandy Bottom area might be a good reason to bring this back to the table for reconsideration. All the streets are city-owned, so no complications from state DOT. Think our friends at Stone Consulting might be interested? Gary or Randy, feel free to contact me off-list.