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"PRR Steamer Sunk in Quarry" finally put to rest!
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Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  "PRR Steamer Sunk in Quarry" finally put to rest!
Folks,

Those of you who have been on this forum for a while may remember quite the controversy stirred up over a year ago when someone signing in as "Schuylkill Valley" posted here and elsewhere about an alleged PRR 0 -6-0 that had been abandoned in a flooded quarry out near Birdsboro, Pa. After many rounds of name-calling and taunting (prompted possibly in part by the semi-literate rantings of "SV" and alleged proof that never seemed to make sense or match up), we had an offer from "teqdiver" Ryan Parkevich to dive the quarry when he could to settle the question once and for all.

Ryan and I have kept in touch, and so as not to instigate further unpleasantness on this forum, we decided to keep all efforts quiet, even from "SV" himself, until we had firm answers. Well, I believe I can now announce that Mr. Parkevich has held up his end of the deal, and he has already spent two days searching the quarry in question.

The GOOD NEWS is that it appears that Parkevich has found TWO locomotives under the waters of the quarry.

The BAD news is that it appears neither locomotive is a PRR steamer.

Ryan met up with me at the Great Scale Train Show at Timonium, Md. today, where I was helping to run the Baltimore Chapter NRHS surplus sale table. In the back room behind our stand (the "Beef Office"--no, I'm not kidding, the show is held in the Cow Palace of the Maryland State Fairgrounds), I looked over the digital photos and video he provided. I burned a CD on my laptop for further perusal and comparison with noted antique-diver-gear enthusiast and former Railfan & Railroad editor Jim Boyd, and here is the preliminary conclusion:

Based on what appears to be German on what looks to be a builder's plate, the one loco is presumed to be a rebuilt Southern Pacific Krauss-Maffei diesel hydraulic similar to the one pictured below, if not the actual loco (obviously, the date listed is a copyright and cannot be the date of the photo--all were retired by 1963):

Image


The other appears, from the photos, wheel arrangement, etc. to be either a Great Northern 2-D-D-2 Westinghouse electric or, more likely from the yellow paint, the central unit of Union Pacific's coal-burning gas turbine 80/8080, pictured below.

Image

We are now getting in touch with the appropriate potential preservationists for possible rescue efforts. As the California State RR Museum already has a 1963-series K-M body, ex-9010 which was later converted to a camera car, we are looking to either German preservationists or seeing if CSRM would want the Maybach engines for potential restoration.

[/april fool]

Hey, give me a chance, it's still April 1 out west, no?
Author:  fredstev [ Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "PRR Steamer Sunk in Quarry" finally put to re
Did Ryan check to see if Jimmie Hoffa was at the throttle of one of those locomotives?
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "PRR Steamer Sunk in Quarry" finally put to re
No trace of the Niagara, the HUdson, and the EM-1? Damn.
Author:  mxdata [ Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "PRR Steamer Sunk in Quarry" finally put to re
Perhaps they are out on the bottom of the Atlantic with the three EMD's that went over the side up near Newfyland.
Author:  Ron Travis [ Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "PRR Steamer Sunk in Quarry" finally put to re
Boy I really have to bite my tongue on this thread, 4/1 notwithstanding.

RTK
Author:  Tom Cornillie [ Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "PRR Steamer Sunk in Quarry" finally put to re
These locomotives were disposed of in the quarry because both used an experimental form of Asbestos developed by GE in the late 1950's that was found to be highly friable and a severe irritant. In an effort to cover up the matter GE arranged to quietly repurchase the locomotives, seal their carbodies and dumped them in the quarry where they purchased a long term storage easement. This was done as it was felt that the remoteness of the quarry and its cold waters would be the most feasable solution for stabilizing the asbestos - out of sight, out of mind.


Tom Cornillie
Author:  PCook [ Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Expedition to the lost EMD's
Scuba gear won't do you much good if you are looking for the three missing EMD's, as they are in several thousand feet of water. However possibly Dr. Robert Ballard might be able to get to them. Maybe a good subject for a future National Geographic special.

If you take a look at EMD Product Reference Data under Yugoslavian State Railways, you will notice three locomotives built in the mid 1970s that have serial numbers and builder dates totally out of sequence with everything around them. These are the three replacement locomotives that were built with the insurance money the shipping company provided for the trio that broke loose on deck and went over the side in a storm off Newfoundland. They did massive damage to the ship, which almost went to the bottom too.
Author:  Trainlawyer [ Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Expedition to the lost EMD's
Thank you, Sandy.

I needed that today.


Now if he could have stayed down a little bit longer and found the T-1...


GME
Author:  teqdiver [ Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "PRR Steamer Sunk in Quarry" - THE END!
Actually, that's pretty funny! Good one. However, I had been working on the access issue over the last couple of weeks and had filled out all the appropriate paperwork, created an emergency assistance plan and had my insurer send proof of coverage to the park service. I had made a call to them a few days prior to let them know that I was geeting moving on this again, and then I got and e-mail from the park manager:

Dear James,

Unfortunately we no longer permit diving in the quarry area. This was
a decision made by the previous Park manager with which I am in
agreement with. There were several reasons but the primary one is safety. The
quarry is a dangerous place, not the water so much, but the many
abandoned buildings and hidden cisterns throughout the area. We cannot
encourage activity in this area until the area is cleared and deemed safe.
This will require considerable time and money. For an undetermined amount
of time no diving will take place at the quarry unless it is a
certified rescue team.

The locomotive mystery is no longer a mystery. There is only a lot of
junk from the quarry operation, no locomotives.

Eric Brown
Park Manager

I later asked him how they knew what was there and he said there had indeed been a local search and recovery team in the water and they had told him. So, that's it for me. I'm not sure why they even sent me a very large stack of paperwork for obtaining a permit to dive when a previous park manager had outlawed diving in the first place. The last statement really blows my mind about only search and rescue teams being allowed in. These guys are usually the worst divers out there and often are in need of rescue themselves due to their lack of proper equipment, training or any technique whatsoever. I never really cared whether there was any equipment there or not, I just thought it would be fun to either confirm or deny an urban legend. I was actually getting on today to make this post, but Mr. Mitchell beat me to it (as usual).

Ryan Parkevich
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  A T-1? Actually.........
Ryan's camera DID capture what sure appeared to be the silhouette of a PRR T1.

Unfortunately, for those still dreaming, it turned out to be a compilation of leftover parts from South Australian Railways 526, which was dismantled in 1971 in Australia. To quote http://www.australiansteam.com/sar.htm:

"526 was scrapped in 1971 after a period of railtour use, being replaced in this role by 520. Some components remain as spares for 520, notably the wheels. The nosecone including chimney and road numbers was apparently also saved by someone and restored as they were advertised for private sale in April 2003."

Oddly enough, the address for inquiries for that private sale was a post office box in Birdsboro, Pa. ............

Below is a photo of 520, one of two other survivors of the class..........

Image


[Okay, have you had enough yet?]
Author:  PCook [ Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Expedition to the lost EMD's (continued)
Well, that still leaves the three Yugoslavian EMD's out there sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic with no photos taken yet. There are a few RSD1's and steam locomotives out there too.

Dr. Ballard, are you reading this string?
Author:  Ron Travis [ Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Sunk in Quarry" - UNRESOLVED I THINK
The part that I have never understood about this legend is its historical evidence, if any. We know that there is a quarry in which locomotives once operated, and that it has since been abandoned and allowed to fill with water. What is the reason to believe that a locomotive was left in the quarry? Was there a witness who has brought the information forward? If so, is the witness credible? Is there a newspaper account or historical records from the quarry or the Pennsylvania RR? Are there a large number of people who have passed the legend down through time? Or is this just a guess based on the fact that the quarry is full of water and we can’t see what it contains?

I assume that this alleged abandonment of the locomotive dates from the 1930-1950 period. That timeframe is not so distant that it poses a great obstacle to historical research. I certainly see several reasons not to believe the Park Service’s contention that there is no locomotive in the quarry.

There is no need to dive the quarry to confirm or debunk the legend. A simple magnetometer survey from a boat on the surface, or by standing on the ice, would find it if it is there. It shouldn’t take more than an hour. A video device can be lowered to check out any hits. Of course, the magnetometer could find things that provide a magnetic signature similar to that of a locomotive, and yet are not locomotives. But those things would have to be a concentrated iron mass of several tens of tons. How many of those can there be? However, if there is no magnetic response, there can be no locomotive. That is 100% certain.

RTK
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sunk in Quarry" - UNRESOLVED I THINK
The man who originally brought the topic up in the PRR forum stated that he was in the quarry during low-water (the northeastern drought of several years back) and claimed to have stood on the locomotive's cab roof and the sloped back tender. He made that assertion both in public and in private emails. The story might have carried some weight, as plenty of operations bought used switchers toward the close of steam. Now a number of people have argued about this, but I would like to thank TeqDiver for his willingness to investigate a potentially dangerous place and confirm or deny the rumor. Tec Diving is dangerous business. The rest of you guys, keep checking the Farmer's Almanac and wait for another severe drought!
Author:  Ron Travis [ Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sunk in Quarry" - UNRESOLVED I THINK
Thanks for the information Richard,

That’s it? Just one person claiming he found it during low water? I guess it would be helpful to know the general character and credibility of that individual. If I stumbled across a forgotten locomotive suddenly exposed by low water, I would sure take a photograph or 100 before the water came back up. I would probably show somebody. Maybe I would tell the world.

I see nothing implausible per se about the story. There are lost locomotives due to a variety of reasons; also lost bulldozers, logging engines, etc.

I know there has been extreme controversy about this particular legend. However, if it is only based on one person’s story, I wouldn’t call it a legend. You mention that several people have argued about it. It’s either there or it is not. What is there to argue about?

RTK
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sunk in Quarry" - UNRESOLVED
I won't go into too much detail here--if you really want to, you can use the "search" function of this forum--but to make a long story short, the original posts by "Schuylkill Valley" were characteristic of an unsophisticated and/or immature computer reader, rife with misspellings and errors. He alleged to have newspaper articles from the local newspaper describing the quarry and locomotive, but the alleged dates turned out not to match online "perpetual calendars". Alleged photos or video stills were also never provided.

In short, some of the pieces fell into place (for example, the quarry in question was the one from which the PRR re-claimed the H3 #1187 that was later displayed at the 1940 World's Fair), but enough remained in doubt to take the allegations with several grains of skeptical salt. Barring a severe drought or some other means of draining the quarry, it's likely to join the legends of other alleged steamers stashed in barns or whatnot.
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