Generally, I try to keep my opinions to myself, and have fared reasonably well for my reluctance. Today is NOT going to be one of those days when I succeed in keeping my mouth shut, I can tell.

I've been reading here, and on chaski, and on trainorders how terribly hard it is to find opportunities these days to operate "big steam". I've read of the railroads' reluctance to permit it, the astronomical insurance costs, and several other reasons why it isn't practical, it isn't feasible and it isn't going to happen.

Now, I'm no expert, surely. Just an observer, but there's one (1) big black Northern that has operated mainline trips EVERY year since 1993. Thirteen years. As far east as Scranton, as far south as Kansas City, and as far west as Montana. And like the energizer bunny, they just keep going and going and going...

Nobody else has done that. And I've been around since day one, listening to the "experts" who in 1992-1993 said Milwaukee Road 261 will never turn a wheel under its own power. I heard it in museums, on tourist railroads, and other assorted places. Well that wasn't right. And when 261 started to operate, the "experts" said "Aw...they'll be broke down or out of business in a year or two". Wrong again bucko...they're still up and running.

And the latest I hear is that 261 will go down for its 1472 day and that's the last we'll see of her. The "experts" say so. Frankly, I wouldn't bet the family farm on it. Chatting with Steve Sandberg this morning, he said they plan to start the 1472 day in the fall of 2007 and have the locomotive back on line in the Spring of 2008. The new flue set is stored at Harrison Street and the whole inspection has been planned.

What's even more interesting to me is this. They're actively planning to restore and operate a second Northern, a bigger Northern and to do so in such a way that both locomotives will be operational. I'm sure the "experts" (who also think it's too hard to run mainline steam these days) will be happy to explain why this won't happen, why its a bad idea, and so on, but frankly I wouldn't bet against Steve and his incredible crew. Everyone who's done so, so far has been wrong.

I'm willing to bet that if anyone has read this far, that Steve's phone is going to start ringing. I wouldn't bother campaigning for your favorite locomotive, as the target of this effort has already been selected. That's one little piece of information I'll leave for Steve to reveal.

Oh...and in addition to restoring 261, they've acquired, refurbished and operate 20 pieces of passenger rolling stock, including a full length dome and the Skytop Lounge.

So guys, my hat's off to you. You're the quietest bunch of people operating a big locomotive, and without doubt, the most effective.

Regards,
Doug

Steaminfo,

since you brought up the subject, I think that the ex SP 4449 how of Portland , Oregon has steamed a lot of miles since she came out of retirement for the American Freedom Train.

I think she looked kind of strange in Burlington Northern black, but that is only me.

The important thing is that she has traveled a whole lot of miles under her own power.

ted Miles

Doug,

Here is how Steve does it...... We had a full "work week" last week in the shop. Thursday, Friday and Saturday there were probably 20 to 25 crew members donating their time and sweat to pull everything together for the first trips of the year in June. I arrived on Tuesday night to find that Monday and Tuesday there were at least 10 crew members working on the equipment. For the most part, these are people who hold down full time jobs and still are motivated to show up after work or who take time off to work around the shop. And I don't mean 2 hours here and 3 hours there. Most of the guys put in 10 to 12 hours a day just working on the equipment.

We had one member in from Denver, one from North Carolina, one from Bloomington, IL, and two from Chicago in addition to the Twin Cities "regulars". But what got accomplished, you ask?

#261 - Eleven flexible staybolt replaced and at least another dozen or so inspected with the sleeve caps removed. All caps reinstalled. Steam dome cover reinstalled and torqued. Water glasses inspected, cleaned and reinstalled. Rod brasses on engineer's side all removed, polished, cleaned, repacked and all rods reinstalled. Water cistern on locomotive tender cleaned and all debris removed.

Super Dome 53 - Dome roof scraped and needle scaled in preparation for painting car in Milwaukee Road orange and maroon. Work continues on the body side sheets, replacing rusted areas with new metal. Preparation of lounge area under the dome for installation of new carpeting. When the carpeting is completed, the twelve person conference table out of business car "Montana" will grace the lower level of the dome.

Former UP company service baggage car - This car has been at the shop for a couple of years waiting for its turn to return to service. Last week, work continued on the installation of 480v trainlines under the car. The trucks are being fully rebuilt and sufficient work is being done to the interior to make it operational as an "open door baggage car" for this year's trips. It will also debut in a coat of fresh orange and maroon. Eventually this car will be outfitted as an open door concession car and will take the place of the old "Shoreview". This car will be fully Amtrak compatible.

And the other project that no one touched was the installation of new carpeting and reupholstered seats and sofas for the bedrooms and roomettes in sleeper "Minnesota River". Emergency escape windows will also be installed. This work will be completed in time to hit the road on June 21.

Steve is definitely the mastermind of the operation but there is a core group of dedicated crew members who provide the sweat and ingenuity (and sometimes a little blood) to support this operation. Everyone in the organization is committed to providing the best, most comfortable and most reliable equipment possible in addition to providing a first class experience for those who ride. We LOVE what we do and are proud of the product that we provide.

Don C.

Bob,

I have met Steve and seen the engine up close and personal. In fact, the turbo generator on the engine came from the Morehead and North Fork Railroad.

Just dreaming now:

I wonder, if I had my eyes on another 4-8-4 to restore, would an 80 inch driver one sitting in Havre, MT(GN 2584) be the one I would consider provided that BNSF would lease it to me? It is my favorite and could well be a good candidate for restoration and it is next to the Main Line at the Station. I spent many hours as a kid looking at that engine before they moved it from the Park Hotel to its present location.

I am bulding a copy of it's 7 note whistle at present along with my live steamer.

I know that Steve will announce when he is ready.

JD Johnson, Morehead and North Fork Railroad Historian

One thing that I have never seen is hard numbers from a steam excursion - from either a single or multiple trips. The numbers are critical for understanding what costs are constant, are variable - which could then be used to calculate ticket prices, and estimate sales. Without the numbers, it is hard to evaluate the significance of other factors (insurance costs, etc.)

Also regarding 261 - a basic analysis of economic strategy would suggest that they have found a niche (namely operating excursions as Amtrak charters) and that they have achieved important economies of scale; both in terms of mechanical capability and relations with Class 1's (the last factor has given them a wide regional reach). I do not think that their business model would be easily replicable elsewhere in the near future.

Tom Cornillie

JD,
Funny thing, I just took a good natured swipe at an east coast steam operator at another site using that locomotive as an example (it's my hands- down favorite also).....can you imagine, a G.N. 4-8-4...Glacier Park Paint Scheme.....Oh, Man....DST.

I almost forgot about two other gentlemen from out of town, a fellow from Green Bay and another from Madison, WI. I didn't mean to slight them, it is just that the old nut on my shoulders gets a little rusty at times.

Don C.

I seem to remember-and correct me if I'm wrong-that North Star Rail considered the GN 4-8-4 in Havre, along with CB&Q 5631 (on display in Sheridan, Wyoming), but chose the 261 to restore back in the early 90s. I don't know this for sure but I remember reading that it came down to a choice between 261 and 5631.

One has to remember, operating mainline steam counts on many things, namely "location". The 261 group has multiple mainlines in the area so they're not bound by one host railroad or route, and, my guess, they probably have a large pool of Amtrak employees in the area, which are needed to help out on those certified runs.

As "Ross Rowland no s" has said, "location, location, location".

Smokebox

The thing is that those doing the most are too busy to talk about it so often say the least.

Hillcrest,

A trip over Marias pass like the old days would be something to see.

Could you imagine some Omaha orange cars to go with it?

Just dreaming again.

Take care,

JD Johnson, Morehead and North Fork Railroad Historian

I've been fascinated by the public and private responses I've gotten to this thread, and would like to add a bit to it:

First, and foremost I understand and respect the enormous contributions that 261's volunteers have made to the success of the operation. I've met most of them, and they're just about the best group of people I've ever met in this hobby/avocation/addiction/plague/whatever.

Secondly, I guessed in advance that at least some of the responses would be to imply that 261 is succeeding because of some natural advantage (location) or irreproducible marketing technique. If you can ascribe the success of the 261 and its crew to factors that are available only to them, it then makes it easy to dismiss their success, and to say, well yes, locomotive XYZ could have succeeded just as well, had it only had the advantages that the 261 had.

261's advantages are its superb mechanical condition and hence its reputation for reliability. This wasn't achieved by magic, but rather by careful, intense and ongoing inspection, maintenance and preventive maintenance. Any operator could have done that and some do.

The 261's folks enjoy extremely good relations with the railroads that host their trips. Anybody could have done that in their own area, all it took was tact, diplomacy and professionalism, things available to anyone. Instead, their are railroads out there who've publicly avowed that they'll never host another steam locomotive unless its dead-in-tow because of the actions of Locomotive XYZ's crew. And by XYZ, I could be referring to any one of several locomotives.

The 261 folks realized early on that leasing rolling stock for trips was a budget killer in the long run, and acquired, rehabilitated and operate their own passenger fleet. There's nothing magic there. Just hard work, planning and more hard work. Anybody else could have done the same.

And let's speak a bit about professionalism. This is an attribute that contributes enormously to the success of 261. And it is readily available to anyone who wants to try the same thing. One of my kids is a conductor on the Canadian Pacific, and often, over a cup of coffee will rant about the latest depradations of the local FRNs (rail nuts). I knew that he had been exposed to 261 and 2816 during the Grand Excursion and asked him if his comments about FRN's extended to 261. His response, "Hell no! Those guys are railroaders." 'Nuff said.

Anyhow, let me also add that there are folks out there, operating steam whom I equally respect, include Doyle McCormack and the 4449 and Rich Melvin and 765. And the folks at Owosso with 1225.

But I'm babbling. I'll now shut up. Y'all have a good day.

Doug

Doug makes some very good points. Most importantly there there is no substitute for professionalism.

While I am by no means an authority on the subject, I think the last couple of posts really sum up a lot of the 261 team's sucess, and that is, in a word, professionalism. These folks, like the 4449 crew before them (as well as others) have built a reputation that is hard to come by. It's all the result of planning, hard work and dedication. You do the work, put in the time, you get recognized. As someone else just said, it's not always the loudest group that does the most.

I recall a set of 261 trips about 7 years ago. The 261 was running from
downtown Chicago out to Galesburg, IL and back for the Galesburg RR Days festival. On the Saturday outbound to Galesburg trip there was a problem with the engine. I dont' know the technical aspects, I've heard that it was an overheating bearing. Long story short, the trip which had been clocking along at well over 70 mph, was now reduced to not much more than about 10mph. This on a very heavyily trafficed BNSF mainline.

The crew was in constant communication with all parties, did the best they could and limped into Galesburg. The return trip to Chicago as well as the next morning's outbound to Galesburg trips were handled by back-up diesel power while the 261 crew had someone drive parts down from Minnesota. The crew worked through most of the night and the next day to get the engine back up and runnning, and she pulled the return trip back to Chicago Sunday night. That's dedication and professionalism, not only to your paying customers, but also to those folks that have allowed you to operate on their railroad. The effort is easy to see by everyone.

Big business couldn't care less about your love of trains and steam engines. If they can make money from it, and your operation won't interfere or jeopardize their operations, there's a small chance you can work something out. Screw it up, and second chances are hard to come by. Do a good job, show you know your stuff, and the door is a little easier to get your foot into the next time. (Wish I could get my 16 year old son to understand this basic concept !) Keep doing a decent job, and it gets a little easier and easier.

I look forward to many more years of all these folks operating big mainline steam. Congratulations to all of them, they deserve not only our patronage, but our respect as well.

My post was in no way to dismiss the efforts the 261 crew has accomplished.

I'm only pointing out that if you are deep in UP territory(819), CSX territory(765), or a "to-busy" mainline (3751) it does have a factor on if you can even get out of the door.

The 4449 with its 31 years of operation has had a 3 year effort just to make a run to Bend, a quick 100 mile mainline trip, then off onto a secondary line. The 4449 has made this trip three times already, so it's not unchartered territory. The BNSF aproved the runs three different times and the rolling stock was availible. The 4449 is Amtrak certified. Failure was due to everything from "no extra Amtrak diesels availible", to not enough of a Amtrak crew base to support the run. The diesels are required by Amtrak, and the Amtrak crews even offered to volunteer thier services for the trip.

For the last decade nearly 100% of the excursion mainline running the 4449 has done has been on the BNSF. The 4449 has not run a passenger trip on the former SP mainline in over a decade. Should something as simple as a change in policy or management on the BNSF would very likely spell the end of mainline steam at speed in all of the Northwest. This is my point of "location".

Smokebox