I have always been interested in the Alco "Camelback" design. After reading the August 16, 2001 Brief, Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Railway 4-4-0 "Camelback" No. 952, I had some questions. First off, is this locomotive in any condition near operable, if not is there any chance this locomotive might be operable in the future? Thanks in advance! It would be nice to see one of these locomotives in operation!!

Aaron B.

Photo & Link: The photo below is from The August 16, 2001 Brief, and the link is to the brief.

http://www.rypn.org/Briefs/August2001/010816.htm

norfolk_western_611@hotmail.com

Aaron, I'm afraid you will never see any of the handful of surviving Camelbacks operate under steam for two reasons:

1. they are all too precious and rare to be subjected to the wear and tear of reconstruction for operations, and

2. The Federal government outlawed their use long ago. The engineer in his side perch sits right above the side rods; in the event of an accident moving parts from the side rods and valve motion can come flying up into the cab, killing the engineer.

eledbetter@rypn.org

> I have always been interested in the Alco
> "Camelback" design.
Hi Aaron!
Just as a matter of information, the "Camelback," Mother Hubbard or as actually known on the railroads, Center cab. Is NOT an ALCO design. The B&O had the first center cab locos built by Ross Winans and were merely called "Camels." The later versions to burn leftover culm from the mining operations were built to the railroads orders by almost all of the manufacturers and even the railroads themselves! The Lehigh Valley RR even had a class of Camelback Pacific. Certainly these were rare birds, and they were built by Baldwin.
So, as you see, they were not an ALCO innovation!
Keith Taylor

keith.h.taylor@att.net

> Aaron, I'm afraid you will never see any of
> the handful of surviving Camelbacks operate
> under steam for two reasons:

Hello Eric,
All you say is certainly true! The only fortunate alternative is the several fine scale models built by Live Steamers. While not the "real" thing, at the Pennsylvania Live Steamers club, you can still ride behind a Lackawanna Camelback pulling the "Phoebe Snow!" And on rare occasions the Lehigh Valley's Black Diamond Express make s stop, in 3/4" to the foot scale, in my back yard.
And yes, I burn Anthracite coal in it!
Keith

keith.h.taylor@att.net

Actually I suppose I should qualify my blanket statement. The Federal government banned the production of new Camelbacks, but gradfaterhed existing Camelbacks, and indeed the Strasburg operated the Reading 0-4-0 camelback as their number 4 during the 1960s. However, the fist point stands--some engine are really too precious to run, and that's one of them.

eledbetter@rypn.org

> fortunate alternative is the several fine
> scale models built by Live Steamers. you can
> still ride behind a Lackawanna Camelback...
> Keith

From all of us who lack either the skills or time, to those of you "master craftsmen" who are producing these fine models:
How about sharing your work with the world by posting some photos ?
It would help ease the pain in the "if only they'd have saved" ward.

> Hi Aaron!
> Just as a matter of information, the
> "Camelback," Mother Hubbard or as
> actually known on the railroads, Center cab.
> Is NOT an ALCO design. The B&O had the
> first center cab locos built by Ross Winans
> and were merely called "Camels."
> The later versions to burn leftover culm
> from the mining operations were built to the
> railroads orders by almost all of the
> manufacturers and even the railroads
> themselves! The Lehigh Valley RR even had a
> class of Camelback Pacific. Certainly these
> were rare birds, and they were built by
> Baldwin.
> So, as you see, they were not an ALCO
> innovation!
> Keith Taylor

The names are so similar, you might think they are the same design of engine. Not so.

Ross Winans built the first Camel (named "Camel") for the B&O in 1848. The engine was an 0-8-0 with a deep firebox behind the rear driver and a big steam dome like a camel's hump (hence the name). The engineer's cab was a big cabin on top of the boiler. Winans camels were coal-burners, and the best heavy haulers of their day. The Reading bought a fleet of them starting in 1850 and so did the PRR. All Winans camels were 0-8-0's but B&O built two groups of 4-6-0 camels in 1853-4 and 1869-75. The two surviving camels are 4-6-0's from this last group.

Camels burned soft coal well, but not anthracite. Reading shops built a 4-4-0 ("Hiawatha") in 1859 with a 9-foot long firebox between the drivers that did burn anthracite, which led to a class of 4-6-0 freighters callad gunboats in 1863.

In 1877, John Wootten of P&R built a modified gunboat (408) with a wide firebox to burn waste anthracite. At first, the cab was atop the firebox but engine 412 went to an exhibition in Paris, (France, that is) and would not meet continental clearances with the high cab, so the cab was moved in front of the firebox and there is your camelback. 408's cab was later modified the same way.

So, a camelback is a different design from a camel, and is not directly descended from one. P&R still had a lot of Winans camels in 1877 so the name camelback was undoubtedly derived from the older engine.

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