Railway Preservation News :: View topic - Hale & Kilburn Seats

If we knew more about the seat - perhaps we could find it... no guarantee since many patents don't show the owner - just the inventor(s).

Sorry - haven't found it, but, Just as example:
for class 297/94 94 BACK REVERSIBLE AS TO BOTTOM; E.G., WALKOVER TYPE ....

Class 297 Sub-Class 95 - Back movement tilts bottom oppositely. <snip> They were all filed by Henry S. Hale of Philadelphia, PA. The first two were witnessed by J. Warren Hale and Jno. B. Kilburn.

The "patented" statement could also mean that it was a design patent. They have a different numbering system starting with "D". Normally these will turn up in a class search. Fewer design registrations are granted. I went through the few that issued in Sept. 1890 without finding anything related to railroad car seats. ... Glad I could help. ... A compilation of patents on railway systems would be fun to do, but very time consuming. Bob M

I'll update the list if more are found.

Author:	robson [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:59 am ]
Post subject:	Hale & Kilburn Seats - U.S. Patent Numbers
Does anyone know the U.S. Patent numbers for Hale & Kilburn seats? Some of our cars had H&K seats with a Patent date of September 1890, but no Patent number, unfortunately. I have searched through the U.S. Patent Office site for that month but there is nothing for Hale & Kilburn seats. The Patent numbers for September 1890 are: 435,382 (September 2, 1890) to 437,672 (September 30, 1890) The Patent could have been filed in September but the actually Patent Number and Date may have been months later. In 1890 there were over 2,000 patents filed per month. Railway Rolling Stock Patents are allocated Class 105, and then divided into hundreds of sub-classes. The indexing, pre 1975, is not very easy to negotiate, so wading through every Patent from October 1890 onwards would be a nightmare. So, can anyone help with Patent numbers? ..... please! :-) Regards, Rob

Author:	patentable [ Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hale & Kilburn Seats - U.S. Patent Numbers
My guess is that the patent isn't classified under railway rollingstock - unless the patent claims a chair and a car.... its under "chair" or seat. try class 297 http://www.uspto.gov/go/classification/ ... efs297.htm to look at the definition of class 297. Do you have a picture of the seat that you could post? Something that would further narrow this down? Does the seat fold? move? How is it constructed - any of these would help narrow it down. Bob M

Author:	patentable [ Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hale & Kilburn Seats - U.S. Patent Numbers
Sorry - haven't found it, but, Just as example: for class 297/94 94 BACK REVERSIBLE AS TO BOTTOM; E.G., WALKOVER TYPE This subclass is indented under the class definition. Device wherein a back is mounted to move from a rear edge of a bottom to the front edge so as to alternately accommodate an occupant facing opposite directions. SEE OR SEARCH THIS CLASS, SUBCLASS: 72+, for a device of type described above combined with a leg or a footrest interconnected to move relative to the bottom and concurrently with the bottom or back. 92+, for a seat having a back which is interchangeable and reversible with the bottom. Take a look at the following from the same era - none are Hale and Kilborn you will have to install the free internetiff software to view the *.tiff files on the patent office site. US 0443308 to Wright and Sapp (no assignee shown) US 0387404 to Doyle Note also sub classes 62 COMPONENT REORIENTABLE TO STACKED BUNKS; and 63 COMPONENT OF ADJACENT SEATS REORIENTABLE TO SINGLE BED. Lots of railroad sleeper seats in these classes. If we knew more about the seat - perhaps we could find it... no guarantee since many patents don't show the owner - just the inventor(s).

Author:	robson [ Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hale & Kilburn Seats - U.S. Patent Numbers
patentable wrote: If we knew more about the seat - perhaps we could find it... no guarantee since many patents don't show the owner - just the inventor(s). Thanks for the detailed information on the patent categories. It will be a great help in narrowing the search. I don't have a close-up photo of the actual seat handy at the moment, but they are almost identical to the reproductions of the Type 97 H&K seats available from the Strasburg Railroad - that is a back-reversible walkover type. However, I do have a builder's photo of the inside of a car, fitted with the seats. I will scan it later today and post it here. ~~ Rob

Author:	robson [ Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Hale & Kilburn Seats - U.S. Patent Numbers
patentable wrote: Sorry - haven't found it, but, Just as example: for class 297/94 94 BACK REVERSIBLE AS TO BOTTOM; E.G., WALKOVER TYPE .... You certainly pointed me in the right direction "patentable". Thanks again. These five Hale & Kilburn Seat Patents were just found under: Class 297 Sub-Class 95 - Back movement tilts bottom oppositely. Patent 364,011 - dated May 31, 1887 Patent 417,823 - dated December 24, 1889 Patent 432,702 - dated July 22, 1890 Patent 432,703 - dated July 22, 1890 Patent 505,246 - dated September 19, 1893 They were all filed by Henry S. Hale of Philadelphia, PA. The first two were witnessed by J. Warren Hale and Jno. B. Kilburn. No patents were found for September 1890, but the above are getting very close to a match. Regards, Rob

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Author:	robson [ Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hale & Kilburn Seats - U.S. Patent Numbers
robson wrote: Class 297 Sub-Class 95 - Back movement tilts bottom oppositely. <snip> They were all filed by Henry S. Hale of Philadelphia, PA. The first two were witnessed by J. Warren Hale and Jno. B. Kilburn. Found eleven H&K Car Seat Patents so far, including Patent 436,313 for September 1890. Patent 359,354 - dated March 15, 1887 Patent 364,011 - dated May 31, 1887 Patent 384,153 - dated June 5, 1888 Patent 417,822 - dated December 24, 1889 Patent 417,823 - dated December 24, 1889 Patent 425,505 - dated April 15, 1890 Patent 432,702 - dated July 22, 1890 Patent 432,703 - dated July 22, 1890 Patent 436,313 - dated September 9, 1890 Patent 475,109 - dated May 17, 1892 Patent 505,246 - dated September 19, 1893 I'll update the list if more are found. Some of the Patents refer to serial numbers for previously lodged applications. Unfortunately the U.S. Patents web site doesn't allow searches by serial number for pre 1975 Patents. Cheers, Rob

Author:	patentable [ Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hale & Kilburn Seats - U.S. Patent Numbers
The "patented" statement could also mean that it was a design patent. They have a different numbering system starting with "D". Normally these will turn up in a class search. Fewer design registrations are granted. I went through the few that issued in Sept. 1890 without finding anything related to railroad car seats. Glad I could help. It's not hard if you center on the classification system - and you have time to open lots of files. Newer patents are much easier to search - by assignee/class or even full text. The old "shoes" maintained by the patent office which is now in Alexandria, Va that held paper copies of the patents for searching are long gone. Even the examiners must search using the class system. Searching older patents can turn up some very strange documents. A compilation of patents on railway systems would be fun to do, but very time consuming. Bob M

Author:	robson [ Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hale & Kilburn Seats - U.S. Patent Numbers
patentable wrote: The "patented" statement could also mean that it was a design patent. They have a different numbering system starting with "D". Normally these will turn up in a class search. Fewer design registrations are granted. I went through the few that issued in Sept. 1890 without finding anything related to railroad car seats. ... Glad I could help. ... A compilation of patents on railway systems would be fun to do, but very time consuming. Bob M Thanks "patentable". One other thought … The Library of Congress ‘The Nineteenth Century In Print’ site at: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/ndlpcoop/mo ... chome.html has scanned copies of ‘Scientific America’ (from 1846 to 1869 so far). Each issue devoted a large section to U.S. Patents for that particular month. http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/ndlpcoop/mo ... /scia.html That may be an easier way of searching for railway patents. The site also has ‘Manufacturer and Builder’ from 1869 to 1894. http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/ndlpcoop/mo ... /manu.html Now, if only they would scan these periodicals: ‘Railway Age’, ‘Railroad Gazette’, ‘National Car and Locomotive Builder’ and ‘Railway Car Journal’. :-) ~~ Rob

Author:	robson [ Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hale & Kilburn Seats - U.S. Patent Numbers
robson wrote: I'll update the list if more are found. An amended list (not complete): Letters Patent 359,354 - dated March 15, 1887 Letters Patent 364,011 - dated May 31, 1887 Letters Patent 384,153 - dated June 5, 1888 Letters Patent 417,822 - dated December 24, 1889 Letters Patent 417,823 - dated December 24, 1889 Letters Patent 425,505 - dated April 15, 1890 Letters Patent 432,702 - dated July 22, 1890 Letters Patent 432,703 - dated July 22, 1890 Letters Patent 436,313 - dated September 9, 1890 Letters Patent 475,109 - dated May 17, 1892 Letters Patent 505,246 - dated September 19, 1893 Letters Patent 691,373 - dated January 21, 1902 Letters Patent 692,133 - dated January 28, 1902 Letters Patent 842,298 - dated January 29, 1907 Letters Patent 879,730 - dated February 13, 1908 All were issued to Henry S. Hale, except the last two, issued to Edward G. Budd, assignor to Hale-Kilburn Metal Company of Philadelphia PA. There is a history of Hale & Kilburn here: http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/h/hale_ki ... ilburn.htm .

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