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| Dissassembling a structure in order to save it. https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20481 |
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| Author: | shrub [ Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Dissassembling a structure in order to save it. |
Hi all. Does anyone here have experience with dissassembling a structure in order to move/preserve/restore it? I ask because of an early interlocking tower which is likely facing demolition in the next year or two if a taker is not found for it. According to the current owner (a farmer), the local museum is not interested. It is an all-wood structure, about 10 feet by 14 feet, 2 storeys tall. Moving it in one piece is impossible due to a number of factors (the height, current condition, cost, and most importantly the 120KM between it's location and my property. By dissassembling it, I figured it would be easier to move, and much cheaper. This is a thought that has been in the back of my mind for a couple years now, likely nothing will happen anyway, I just want to see what the experts here think! Thanks for any advice/experience you are all willing to share! Pete. |
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| Author: | crij [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure in order to save it. |
Pete, I forget which group it was, or how far it was moved, but within the last 3 years, a PRR Group moved one. They broke it into 3 pieces for transport: Roof, Second Floor and First Floor. Lots of preparation time and IIRC they had a crane for almost 2 days, 3 trucks and wide load permits and probably high load permits also. All of this add up relatively quickly, money wise. There are only two other methods that I am aware of, both take significantly longer. The first one is to panelize the building: remove siding in the corners, and remove walls as whole assemblies (you will need a crane and a crew of fiends). The other way is to disassemble stick by stick, just remember to take many photos and number every board (might even want to make a drawing showing how the pieces were numbered, since there will be at least 6 months between the start of the teardown and the beginning of reassembly. Hope this helps. Rich C. |
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| Author: | JR May [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure in order to save it. |
I know it has been done with old barns and perhaps a web search on that subject may help. I was involved once in a board by board move of a building. I think it can be done. but every piece needs to be numbered in some way. There was an article I thought on this site, about a numbering scheme to make such a move. I really don't recall where I saw it. Good luck with it. I'd be interested in how it turns out. J.R. |
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| Author: | isaksenj [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure in order to save it. |
The past-master of disassembly/reassembly/restoration is Don Carpentier of the Historic Eastfield Foundation in East Nassau, NY. http://www.daats.com/gac/aboutdon/aboutdon01.htm "Eastfield Village" is a village of 20-plus late 18-and early 19th Century structures that have been disassembled and rebuilt as a laboratory of historic restoration techniques. Every year, Eastfield hosts classes in restoration techniques where students actually live in the village for the duration of the 3-5 day classes. While not normally open to public visits, the Foundation's annual Open House will be May 13: http://www.historiceastfield.org/ A description of the Village, a list of this years' classes, and other information can be found at: http://www.daats.com/gac/eastfield/eastfield.htm |
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| Author: | acmerlo [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure in order to save it. |
I would think that if ithe building is a stick frame structure, which became common in the 1850s and is still used today, disassembling it into a lower and upper floor, and possibly a roof would be the best way to transport the building without doing too much dissection. Stick frame structures were built in two variations, balloon framed and platform framed. Depending upon the age of structure, it might be a balloon type frame, in which the studs run 2 stories up, from the sill plate to the top plate above the roof. This was common, in residental structures at least, up until 1910 or so, but haven't been used since then because the tall vertical chases in the wall cavities allow a fire to spread very quickly. If you're lucky, it's a platform frame building, where the walls are only 1 story tall, making disassembly a lot easier. Barns are usually totally dissasembled, but they're almost always post and beam construction, composed of a relatively small amount of large timbers. I know the Strasburg Railroad's J Tower was relocated in the mid 80's. Perhaps someone from the railroad could tell us how it was disassembled. |
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| Author: | Les Beckman [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure in order to save it. |
Pete: I know of at least two interlocking towers that were moved as described by Rich C. One was the Milwaukee Road Spring Hill interlocking tower at Terre Huate, Indiana. I believe they used four trucks for the move; one each for the roof, second floor, first floor and the interlocking plant itself. The second was the B&O's Dearborn Tower moved to the Whitewater Valley's museum site. Both of these were wood frame buildings. Perhaps someone from these organizations can provide more detail. Good luck on the move! Les |
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| Author: | Dennis Storzek [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure in order to save it. |
I believe Pete wants to try to move this on the cheap, like with one or two men and no major expenditures. It's doable by disassembly back to individual boards, but not by trying to make it into sub assemblies. Disassembly board by board is certainty possible; years ago I worked with a crew of four that dismantled Hamlin Tower on the Lake Street Elevated; a two story tower, the bottom of which stood on the "L" structure. Of course, we weren't trying to save it, but the desire to not disrupt service on the near track led to taking it apart pretty much board by board and dropping them into a dump truck. It wouldn't have been that much more work to save the parts, except ladder access to the outside was rather limited, since the first floor was already twenty feet off the ground. First off, sketch all the framing that's visible inside, the number all the parts, both on the sketch and on the parts with chalk or soapstone. Paint would be longer lasting, but also won't come off after the structure is reassembled. Now photograph all the parts you've numbered, from multiple angles, and when you think you have enough photos, take some more. Equip yourself with an assortment of pry bars; flat bars, big wrecking bars, and "cat's paws" the short pry bar with the spoon shaped end that looks like a mini doe's foot, about 12" long. Check the size of the nail slot; some brands will pull a 16d nail, while others are just about worthless. Also obtain the services of a SawZall, and electricity to run it (a generator if necessary). Equipped with a 6" long coarse tooth blade (buy LOTS of blades) it is a good tool for cutting items that won't be saved into short lengths that are easy to strip off. Equipped with a 12" long bi-metallic metal cutting blade, it's a great tool for slipping in between boards to cut nails that you can't reach to pull. It can also save siding by cutting the nails so you don't have to bugger the face trying to pull them. Start with the roof. depending what the roof covering is, either save the tile, slate, whatever, or sketch what is there, strip and discard. decide whether the roof sheathing boards are worth saving, and either number them and sketch the numbering arrangement, or strip and discard. Now that you can stand on boards laid on the second story ceiling joists, you can reach over to remove the fascia, crown molding, soffit, and any fancy brackets under the eaves. Again, either number, sketch, carefully cut free and lower, or sketch, strip and discard, saving at least one of everything for a pattern. Next remove the second floor ceiling, the ceiling joists, and the interior lining of the second story. I bet you will find the walls are balloon framed and the studs run through to the ground. Once the interior of the walls are opened up, you'll be able to see what you have to deal with, Number, sketch and photograph as before. With the interior open, you should be able to un-build the window frames, and loosen the exterior sheathing from the inside. If the exterior is siding over sheathing, you'll have to set up a scaffold to remove the siding, prying each board open and either pulling the nails or cutting them with the SawZall. By this time you should be an expert at how the building comes apart, so removing the second floor and the heavy frame for the interlocking machine should be easy, relatively speaking. You may need to add some bracing to the lower wall framing before you fully remove the second floor and wall sheathing so the remaining structure doesn't collapse. To re-assemble, simply reverse the steps. Good luck. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure in order to save it. |
I was involved in moving a house to save it from being demolished by a church to create a mudhole to park cars in. The house was late Queen Anne in a local Southern vernacular, single story, 3 bays wide, center hall and entrance. We jacked and cribbed it onto steel, then cut it in half down the length of the center hall with chain saws, after building temporary stud walls to support the roof and ceiling on both sides. After moving both sides, we pulled them together, scabbed the framing back, and patched the slots. It was actually pretty easy. Assuming you are dealing with a western braced platform framed structure, the roof / second story / first story method sounds reasonable, but it will require some specialized rigging and trucking at some cost. Some railroad structures I have worked on with vertical board and batten siding have horizontal ribbands running around the perimeter walls, with about 2 foot cripple studs between layers. Sawing through the cripple studs might be a way to seperate stories in this case. No matter how you do it, unless you can hire a crew it will be a real project. Best of luck. dave |
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| Author: | Ken Middlebrook [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Dissassembling a structure in order to save it - #1 priority |
Dennis Storzek wrote: To re-assemble, simply reverse the steps. Good luck. A new location, ready to accept the rebuilt structure, is a MUST. |
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| Author: | Les Beckman [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure to save it - Another thought! |
Hey guys. I got to looking at Pete's original posting and it got me to thinking (a bit dangerous for me I will admit!) Pete says the interlocking tower is 10' x 14' x two stories tall. Would it be possible to TILT this building and move it on its side? Then it would be either 10' wide by only 14' tall OR 14' wide by only 10' tall. I am not sure what the height of a two story tall building would be, but that would then become the length if tipped onto one side. Now maybe this can't be done without the whole thing coming apart, but if it COULD be done, it might be more readily moveable. I would imagine you might have to do a lot of bracing on the inside to keep it plumb. OK, so this is probably a stupid idea. So please then, tell me that it is and that it can't be done! Les |
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| Author: | Dave [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure to save it - Another thought! |
Well Les, what if you filled the structure with thousands of cans of Great Stuff first, so that it would be entirely supported from the inside? This has also been my favorite plan for raising fragile shipwrecks, but nobody else has decided it was worth a try. Once in drydock (or stood up on a new foundation) all you need to do is, little by little, chip out the foam. dave |
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| Author: | Dennis Storzek [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure to save it - Another thought! |
Hey, anything is possible. If the building is balloon framed (and any two story railroad building old enough to look neat is likely balloon framed) and structurally sound, it could likely be laid on its side without scrapping itself. We removed one of the decorative spires off the roof of the California St.. Lake Street Elevated station in this manner, and while not quite as large as this tower, it was about 5’ x 5’ at the base and a good 16’ tall. Here’s the downside: It is going to require a BFC (Big Friggin’ Crane) not so much for the weight as for the reach. Because our spire was about 70’ above the street at its tip, the CTA had to rent a 100 ton mobile crane to lift appx. 2 tons, and it had to fully extend to get above the lift. The roof and decorative eaves trim will still likely need to be removed, as they will be in the way of the sling coming ‘round the corner as the building goes over. Likewise, attachment of the sling so it won’t slip, and spreading the point loads over the building surface so as not to damage the exterior finish will require either disassembly or additional construction, or both. On the station spire, since the whole reason for saving it was to preserve an example of the fancy pressed tin exterior with its fabricated curlicues on the roof, we clamped a frame built of 4 x 6’s around the top of the base to provide attachment points for the rigging that were far outside of the limits of the structure. You will also need to build a cradle to support the structure when it is on the truck, and reinforce the base if the first floor doesn’t come with it. When all is said and done, it is still going to be an oversize load; 10’ wide and at least 16’ high. If you’re going to pay for wire removal on a seventy mile move, might as well just move it upright. |
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| Author: | Ted Miles [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure to save it - Another thought! |
Guys, the Seashore Trolley Museum moved an elevated station from downtown Boston to a barge then to trucks and cut the roof loose and moved the building to their site in Kennebunkport several years ago. It is a beautiful copper clad station. But it was not done on the cheap and the project took many months. But you might want to read the booklet that the museum published about the project. further, I once saw an historic house (18th Century) on eastern Long Island moved a couple of miles. One of the crew left a soda bottle sanding on a window sill. It was still standing when the building arrived at the new location. House moving is amazing! But costly! Ted Miles |
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| Author: | BB9004 [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure in order to save it. |
Given that no museum or other preservation group wants to take responsibility for the tower you're interested in, it may have to be stored for a long time before it is restored. Case-in-point: CPR Cabin D, an early wooden interlocking tower own by the City of Toronto, was moved at significant municipal expense to the city-centre John Street roundhouse site many years ago - and has been rotting ever since, since no effort was made to either stabilize it in situ or disassemble it for storage out of the weather inside the virtually empty 32-stall roundhouse and machine shop complex. Despite efforts by the now-defunct Toronto Railway Historical Committee between 2001 and 2004 to have the City do or at least permit some stabilization, nothing has been done to protect the building. Since the heavy metal interlocking frame is located on the second floor, eventually it will crash through the floor and destroy the building - if arsonists and vandals don't get the building first. The lesson here is that it's not enough to move a building to "save" it. If it is not to be disassembled and securely stored out of the weather, it needs to be thoroughly stabilized - which amounts to a partial restoration. If it's just going to sit outdoors until it falls apart, like Cabin D, then it makes more sense to remove key items like the interlocking machine and the model board and do extensive photographic coverage prior to allowing the building to be demolished. |
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| Author: | Les Beckman [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dissassembling a structure in order to save it. |
BB9004- I get the impression that, since no museum is interested in the tower, Pete is willing to try to save it and preserve it himself. Although this is a daunting idea, I believe one person, if suitably motivated, CAN get the job done. I have a friend who himself, tore down an old frame depot, moved it in pieces to his property on his own trailer, then slowly reassembled it. It had been used for a hay barn for decades and was about to be burned by a subsequent owner. The original back wall had rotted away and had been replaced by plywood. The new owner found a photo and was able to replicate that wall (window and door placements) and restored the depot. He did an absolutely beautiful job. An interlocking tower perhaps might be a bit more difficult, but not impossible. I wish Pete luck in getting it moved. If he can get it to his property, I have no doubt that he will be able to renovate the structure. I actually wish our museum was closer to the structure. I am sure we would be interested in it if it was. But, lacking another alternative, I think Pete represents the best hope for this structures preservation. Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana) |
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