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History and Significance
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Author:  Ted Miles [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  History and Significance
I have seen a number of former military Army, Air Force etc locomotives and cars turning up in rail museums recently.

Are they as significant as Main Line equipment?

I work for a museum that had two Navy Diesels and decided to send them to another museum with a large Diesel collection.

Since the military requires them to be re-numbered and lettered they are loosing their identity in museums. Is this important?

Food for thought.

Ted Miles
Author:  scrmcurator [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: History and Significance
We did not reletter our Air Force RS4TC's when we got them, because they were used at a Shaw AFB and as such were historically appropriate for the collection. Nobody has complained, and we've had 'em in revenue service for several years now. Spencer has a GE 45-tonner still lettered "US Army," and their Davenport center cab is still wearing Navy lettering. Those engines have looked like that since I first saw them in the late '80s.

You can restore other military equipment to military markings as long as you don't try to use the military markings to get around registration laws. Look at all the Jeeps and warbirds that are privately owned and painted for the military -- heck the entire collection of the CAF has authentic lettering. If nobody says anything about them, what's different about a locomotive?

I've heard that this alleged regulation is written down somewhere, but nobody has ever been able to provide me with a citation. Even if it does exist, it's not enforced as the above examples show. I suspect it's either a complete myth, or an actual regulation that's being misinterpereted.
Author:  Stephen S. Syfrett [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: History and Significance
Hey, Ted,

Next time you have a spare SW-8 or similar please consider sending it to Thronateeska Heritage Center. :>) Heck, even a center cab would do! We don't have a diesel...yet. Still working on that.
Author:  Ted Miles [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: History and Significance
Matt,

Yes, your museum was one of the ones that I was thinking of when I mentioned this sort of equipment.

The Diesels that I mentioned hard their markings sprayed over when they come to us.

maybe it is not official, but the military markings do go away!
Author:  Ted Miles [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: History and Significance
Stephen,

You should get in touch with the Western Pacific Railroad Museum at Portola, California.

They always seem to have a Diesel or two that they want to find a home for.

They have even had a Southern Pacific and Union Pacific steam engines that they sent to other homes in order to finially get a Western Pacific engine.

If you have some money available to buy one, then there are used rail-
road equipment dealers. One of them especially likes to do business with railroad museums. Perhaps one of the other readers can remember the name and contact information.

Ted Miles
Author:  Dave Jandron [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: History and Significance
Ted Miles wrote:
I have seen a number of former military Army, Air Force etc locomotives and cars turning up in rail museums recently.

Are they as significant as Main Line equipment?

I work for a museum that had two Navy Diesels and decided to send them to another museum with a large Diesel collection.

Since the military requires them to be re-numbered and lettered they are loosing their identity in museums. Is this important?

Food for thought.

Ted Miles


Hi Ted,

we at the Michigan Transit Museum have a pair of ex-military locomotives, ex-US Army S1 1807 and ex-USAF RS4TC 4040. The BLH is still in it's Air Force Blue, as was delivered to us, sans USAF markings. The Alco also lost it's markings upon us receiving it, but we've taken a few liberties to it's paint scheme as it's been repainted at least once since then. Since we partially operate on an active military base, I'm not sure if the rules for our equipment are different from other Museums who operate 100% in the public's eye. Regardless, because of our operations, we do NOT have the military markings on the equipment, maybe to point out that they are 100% our Museum's property and no longer belonging to the military. The 1807 has our logo riveted on to it's side, but the 4040 is pretty much unmarked as of yet. Hopefully, if we get some of the more important projects completed, we can take care of that little detail!!

With our operations as they are, we DO however explain the history of the locomotives during our train rides. It adds a little bit of interest to the whole "military" aspect of our operations.

P.S., for Stephen and anybody else interested, we HAVE found that one of those old Caterpillar-rebuilt RS4TC's are WAY better on fuel than an Alco S1 with the original Mac & Seymour engine!! One thing is that it's a bit lighter, too. Something to take into consideration when thinking about how much you plan on pulling and what condition your track is in.
Author:  Stephen S. Syfrett [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: History and Significance
Ted,

Thanks for the suggestion. To be honest, I have (personally) a SW-9 of appropriate heritage (Atlantic Coast Line) for use at Thronateeska Heritage Center that I've been trying to get operational for slightly more than 3 years now. It's a long story, but it is out of state, and if I put in the money that it will take to get it on wheels and running, it will have to work for a few years before it can be "retired" to museum operation. I decided some time ago to sell the RS-3 to aid in financing the SW-9 repairs, but so far I've been asked to donate the RS-3 for a tax write-off or just give it away, which I can't afford to do. (And it's not like I am asking an arm and a leg for the thing. Basically, I have to assume that if they are not willing to pay what I'm asking, they probably cannot afford to move it. Meanwhile, I continue paying storage fees.) I have most recently been approached by someone interested in parting it out, but nothing firm so far. As much as I hate to see that happen, given the general lack of interest in the RS-3 for preservation, that appears to be it's most likely fate.

Anyway, I've wondered how some of the museums have wound up with what seems to be an over-abundance of power for the operations. (Guys, don't take this as a slam...just wondering how it happened.) For instance, Matt's operation, the SCRM, has a pair of SW-8's and the RS4TC's. Heart of Dixie has 2 SW-8's, both ex-military. Someone moved an ex-military SW to a museum last year (sorry, but I don't remember who.) I'm sure there are other museums with duplicate operating locomotives. How have these been acquired? I am trying to locate an operating/almost operating SW-1, 8, or 9, or even a GE 70 tonner that could be painted as a stand-in for locomotives operated by various railroads in the Albany, GA area. But since Thronateeska has no diesel locomotive at all, just about anything would work, even one of the RS4TC's. An ex-USAF unit would be great, since we had Turner AFB here, and the military influence is still strong in this area. Current power at the USMC facility here are two different unidentified centercab locomotives, probably 80 or 90+ ton GE's.

As they say, begars can't be choosers. If you have any ideas or contacts for acquiring an ex-military locomotive, please contact me through PM. Thanks, and I look forward to some lively discussion.
Author:  Tom Cornillie [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: History and Significance
Dear Ted,

In response to your original question, I think it comes down to how the equipment relates to the story that a given museum is trying to tell. Many museums are located in areas that had significant military rail operations, and others can use military equipment (especially that which was used in mainline service) to tell the story of railroads and national defence.

This seems to be a good way for railroad musuems to attract those with an interest in military history (which seems to be a perennially popular topic) or to foster a partnership with a local military musuem.

Many locomotives and other pieces of equipment have their marking painted out prior to shipment (I have personally seen this happen with many Class 1 and 2 locomotives). Until I see a document or policy that states otherwise, I think the prohibition against restoration to military markings is a myth.

Tom Cornillie
Author:  Ron Goldfeder [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Military Locomotive Markings
When I was in the Air Force (26+ years) I did a lot of business with the folks who deal with surplus equipment. They are required to "demilitarize" the things they dispose of, which is why the markings are often crudely painted over when you get them. That little bit of paint satisfies the rule they are following, but I am not aware of anything that prevents the buyer from restoring these markings. There may be something, and I've been retired from the service for over 10 years now, but not to my knowledge. The way to find out for sure is ask the agency you deal with what level of "demilitarization" is required and get them to show the rules to you. On the other hand you may not like the answer and it might be better to wait until someone objects, which may never happen. When I was at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis we restored the markings on our MRS-1 diesel, and never lost them on the SW8 or FM switchers, locomotive crane and six axle flatcar we also had. No one has make a fuss over the markings yet.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Military Locomotive Markings
The primary function of "de-militarizing" a piece of surplus equipment is exactly the same as that for taking police markings off a surplus police cruiser: to assure that a future user cannot pass himself off as a force of authority. The times when this can become an issue are usually few and far between, but it CAN happen. A collector of my secondhand acquaintance just happens to own one of the actual prototype HumVees, complete with military camoflage and radio gear modified JUST enough to make it legal, and runs into some occasionally-serious issues during transport--like occasionally being at the wrong end of an MP rifle once or twice.

If anyone thinks this is a bunch of malarkey, consider the current atmosphere in Iraq, or if some "troublemakers" were to roll in to New Orleans post-Katrina in ex-military trucks, or if Arizona "Minute Men" started patrolling the Arizona border in ex-military Jeeps--which would be excellent for the terrain, but leave issues of impersonating authority.

The question then becomes, at what stage would a U.S. Army or Air Force locomotive towing a bunch of cabooses full of schoolkids be taken as a military operation? Not a chance. Does anyone think that if Matt Conrad were--by some already impressive miracle--to show up at the gates of the Savannah nuclear facility with an Army locomotive, that the guards are just going to let him in?

As for the use or re-use of ex-military locomotives, I heavily favor their use. First, in my own (limited) experience, ex-military diesels tend to be exceedingly well-maintained--some of the RS4TC's were among the best used locomotives I have ever laid eyes upon, with like-new engines and low miles/hours. Acquiring a military locomotive is like getting any other used power, and frankly, I'd rather see a place like (just to pick some random places) the National Railroad Museum, the SC RR Museum, Strasburg, etc. "consume" an "expendable" and economical tool than wear out an increasingly-rare, fuel-hungry E8, steamer, or Alco S2. In many (but not all) cases, it's all about providing the ride, and the passengers wouldn't care whether they were being pulled by the John Bull, PRR 643, an SW9, Danny the Diesel, or a gerbil-powered treadmill. The B&O Museum recently took this approach, acquiring an ex-Reading & Northern SW7 from a dealer (in trade for some of the soon-to-be-scrapped surplus freight cars) to assign to its passenger trains.
Author:  Eric B. NJMT [ Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Military Locomotive Markings
We have a ex US Army 3ft gauge GE 25 tonner. It still carries its Army number 7751. Same as when it was used at Pearl.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/24285607/1049593170031568960xJeKZW#
Author:  scrmcurator [ Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: History and Significance
Ted Miles wrote:
Matt,

Yes, your museum was one of the ones that I was thinking of when I mentioned this sort of equipment.

The Diesels that I mentioned hard their markings sprayed over when they come to us.

maybe it is not official, but the military markings do go away!


You're right, we have a number of military diesels. Only two of them, the SW8s, are not what I would consider "artifacts," however.

We have two center-cabs from the Charleston Navy Yard. These were relettered becasue someone believed the myth. The 76, a Porter 50-tonner, will probably stay non-military. I'd like to see the 82, a GE 45-tonner, restored to her Navy markings. The 82 is, we're pretty sure, the oldest diesel in the state.

The two "half diesels" down in Rion were originally US Army Transportation Corps units. They came to us from Columbia Silica Sand (a SC industry) and were acquired mostly as parts. One's a GE 23-tonner and the other is a Porter 45-tonner. I think there's hope for the Porter running again although most people consider it a write-off.

I've alredy mentioned the Shaw AFB engines. These were acquired as SC locomotives.

The other two military units are the Army SW8s. We got these because we needed bigger power for the CN coaches. Like the Canuk cars, they're basically consumables.
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