Ten-years ago that topic line would have referred to Canadian National and Canadian Pacific's M630, M636, and HR616's but today it's referring to northern Quebec's Cartier Railway. Six-years ago the 260-mile ore road was all Alco/MLW powered. In 2002, five years ago this month, the QCM took delivery of 12 GE AC4400's that pushed most of the Alco's (mostly M636's and RS18's - Most notable three Alco C636-Demo's and a ex-UP C630) in to secondary service.

This past month the Cartier took delivery of five more AC4400's - While there still will be Alco's present on the road their roll will be diminished even more.

While much conversation is directed at steam and first-generation diesels it's important not to forget stuff that is a little more recent, especially those still putting revenue miles on.

This is a link to a great site on the Cartier with images of the Alco's and GE's by an engineer on the QCM. http://groups.msn.com/RidingthelastAlco ... rket=en-ca

-Justin Franz

I forget...is Cartier the line isolated from the rest of the national rail system?

Yeah, Operates from the mine at Mt, Wright to Port Cartier, PQ on the St. Lawrence Seaway. Three other ore roads on the north shore are also isolated from the rest of the national rail system - Although two connect with each other.

To use the term 'middle of no where' would not be over stating the area where the QCM runs-threw. Much of the line is inaccessible (Southern 60-miles is in a wildlife reserve and is followed by a rough park road, while the northern 40-miles is followed by Rte 389, another rough road) but what can be seen is truly spectacular and is well worth the effort to photograph, Alco's or not.

-Justin

To put this post in proper perspective:
a) There are a number of examples preserved (in museums) in Canada
b) There are approximately one dozen identical or similar examples operating in the Northeastern U.S.
c) One of the senior officials of the builder of these locomotives once described the model as "the worst locomotive" the company ever built."
d) In spite of c), the extant examples of these locomotives have exceeded their service lives by a factor of 100 percent or more.

One has to wonder why the objects(locomotives, cars) are subject to such a high degree of veneration-while little attention is paid to the men who designed and built these things.

Has anyone ever considered that 30 year old locomotives were the tangible results of efforts on the part of folks whose median age is probably in the 60 year old range ?

A person recently passed who was responsible for some ground breaking work in the field of locomotive control electronics and adhesion control. While this man was first and foremost a steam buff, he made some notable contributions towards documentation and preservation of technical material relating to the builder for which he toiled for 40 years.

Yet another case of a seminal figure from the industry all but ignored by the preservation community-to their collective detriment.

Anyone care to field a guess as to why this is the rule-and not the exception?

Dave

I don't think much guessing is required.

Railroad preservation is still 97% volunteer-driven, and the volunteers we attract are motivated by love of technology not social history.

It's pretty common for some of us to grow into being pretty good and broad-minded transportation and social or organizational historians as well, with an appreciation for all the things you mention. But its not the intial motivation for most of us, and its only a subset of us who grow in that direction.

Fascinating, I never even though of what I and my friends like the late Bruce Meyer did for many decades as being "social history", I thought of it as designing and building locomotives.

I guess I must have missed a sign post along the way.

MX (not my real name)

When you did it, it was work. When the rest of us study how you did it, its social history!

I believe the fact that there still are a number of these locomotives in operation today as being a memorial in it self to the men and women who built and designed them. Just as important are those who maintain these locomotives today, who don't have the advantage of calling up someone at Schenectady or Montreal to order some parts or get mechanical assistance. The recent issue of Railpace Newsmagazine has a nice little article on the mechanical team of the Delaware-Lackawanna in Scranton, PA. For those who are unfamiliar with the D-L, they roster approximately 20-30 Alco/MLW's that find work in both industrial Scranton and on 'The Mountain' out of Scranton, over the Pocono's to the Delaware Water Gap. The extensive roster includes RS3's to C636's and most are restored to a standard that would make some museums envious.

While it is absolutely true that there are still many M/C636's and M/C630's (Approximately two dozen) still in service in 2006, their numbers have fallen dramatically in the last 10-15 years.

You've got to wonder how much longer will we be able to enjoy the work of 'mxdata' and the crew of the D-L - Enjoy it, while we can.

-Justin

MX Data's point is that just as we preserve the images of these old locomotives for the future, we should be preserving the knowledge and memories of the people who designed, built and maintained them. And a group (such as an NRHS chapter) does not need extensive resources (like a museum site or a building) to do so. A decent digital or tape recorder, a well-thought out list of questions, some instruction in the techniques of interviewing for oral history-- not a lot of expense. Probably cheaper than a lube oil change on a GP9 these days.

I guess for me the Big Alco era did end 10 years ago when CP retired the last big fleet. I made trips before "both" retirements, got my photos, spoke the shop workers who kept them humming, and even finagled a short cab ride and a spin on the St. Luc turntable.

Since then, I have taken in Centuries wherever I can, but the era is over. These survivors are interlopers in a new age.

And, yes, perhaps with one or two notable exceptions, the preserved 6 axle Alcos and MLWs will tell the tale just fine. I agree it is the mindshare of the technologists and machinists that is most endangered.


But that's not rare. How many mechanical wizards do you know who are sociologists and vice versa? Not many hands raised, I see.

As much as I love big machines, do you what my clearest memory is from pilgimage #2 to St. Luc? Its not one of the MLWs... It's one of the shop workers explaining to us in a wonderful blend of English and French what he loved and hated about Centuries and SD40-2's. I can't remember the road numbers of the engined we rode that day, but I sure do remember that conversation!

Rob

Howard, thanks for your comments. Yes, the shortage of oral history programs covering the employees of the equipment builders has been an issue that I have brought up quite frequently. Unfortunately I am not aware of any interest so far by the "organized" historical groups in pursuing interviews with the people who designed and built the equipment. When I brought this topic up some time ago with a person in an organization that has some collections of interviews with railroad retirees, I was told "You people aren't railroaders".

But the folks who take that point of view never sat at lunch talking with guys like Bill Becker, Bill Gardner, Mark Lagomarcino, and Bruce Meyer, so they have absolutely no concept of the vast experience that was lost with the passing of these fine people. I don't normally post the names of people I worked with on the internet but I think these gentlemen deserve some mention because they had such an incredible scope of knowledge of industry history and were also some of the best and most eloquent story tellers I have ever known. They were all better and far more interesting speakers than most folks I have encountered in the academic/historical communities, and any one of them could have easily done a memorable presentation at a museum or railroad historical society event.

Erik, I really like the phrase "Social History", it has a very special sound to it. The next time I do a presentation about the industry I am going to have to try using that. I guess since I study this stuff too, it makes me a "Social Historian"!

I will raise my hand half way on this one (BA Sociology, University of Michigan 2003). Also, Harry Braverman whose 1974 work on the relationship between technology and skill remains a major work in the cannon of literature on the sociology of work, was a machinist first and foremost and worked in railroad shops at some points in his carrear.

Tom Cornillie

Good point, Rob.

My interest in the diesel locomotive subject was cemented as a result of a number of visits to the (now torn down) D&H Colonie Shop in the mid-70's.

There were certain instances where one could enter the building and probe the mysteries of what was hidden beneath the hoods of various ALCO and GE models without fear of being evicted.

During one visit, I spied a 5000 series Alco in primer, roaring away, sitting just south of Building 1. A closer look revealed that the thing was on test and hooked up to the shop load box. As I approached to set up for a shot, one of the guys working on the locomotive noticed me and sprinted over to where I was standing.

He said "why are you wasting film on this junk ? Turn around and look behind you." I turned around...and sitting on the easternmost shop lead,
was trio of 7600's (GP-39-2's). Perfectly lit by the afternoon sun. All of a few months old.

His final comment, pointing to the trio-"Look, the D&H has finally joined the 20th century." He needn't have said any more, for I got the point.

Yes, shop guys have good stories to tell, too.

Dave

In fairness, aren't a lot of railroad eras closing fast? Certainly you could argue that the long distance passenger train era is closing - at least when it comes to sleeping cars, diners, etc. Loose car railroading would appear to be on its way out.

Some day Alcos will be like steam locomotives - they will power tourist trains and perhaps barnstorm the country. I assume when Doyle's PA is operational it will have the kind of attention 765 or 844 currently enjoy.

In the meantime, I'll be in the Delaware Water Gap tomorrow to see Alcos tackle a 60+ car freight train - living history I suppose.

Let's really be hypothetical here.

The technology exists to do away with the following:

Signals. Not just the old position-light signals or semaphores, ALL of them.
Radio transmissions, at least human-voice ones. Even the short lines are increasingly being run by cell phones and occasionally laptops.
Crews (or at least reduce to one-man crews).

The only things that has kept us away from a high-tech railroad environment is 1) the capital costs and 2) proving the technology works (as one railroad official said in reference to AC diesel traction, "everybody can't wait to be #2 or #3 to order it").