Railway Preservation News
https://www.rypn.org/forums/

BEDT 14
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20945		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  bobyar2001 [ Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  BEDT 14
At Arkville, NY recently:

http://naphotos.nerail.org/showpic/?pho ... and_Ulster
Author:  eldiner [ Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14
I would think this would be an ideal locomotive for a small (branchline) tourist railroad.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14
Some operations with similar locomotives--for example, the Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern--have used them successfully for years (and in the case of the WK&S, decades). Others, such as the Wilmington & Western and its ex-Navy #3, have found them hard on the track and/or underpowered. There's also the economic debate as to whether the passenger gains from a steam locomotive are worth the added expense, when compared with the more mundane diesel switcher or the light capacity. The B&O Museum, as an example, seems to be quite content with its SW and air-conditioned stainless fleet, and seems to be in no hurry to go back to St. Elizabeth's #4 (also somewhat similar to #14) and the open cars.
Author:  Chris Salmonson [ Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14
From my experience, some visitors, more than you'd expect, will watch a steam locomotive blow down, the fireman shovel coal or rake ash, and swear that the engine is diesel powered, but those skeptics are not the majority.
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14
BEDT 16 was the last operable steam switcher in the Greater NYC area. She ran for a short period on the BR&W.
BEDT 12 is at the Gulf Coast Rail Road Museum, Florida
BEDT 13 at RR Mus of Penna.
BEDT 14 as discussed above
BEDT 15 at Strasburg as (gulp) "Thomas"
BEDT 16 at RMLI, off wheels and awaiting restoration.
Author:  G. W. Laepple [ Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14
No. 14 also operated a few times on the Maryland & Pennsylvania under the ownership of Rail Tours, Inc. in 1965. I am told that firing with fuel oil could not provide steam fast enough to keep it going on the run to Yoe. Rail Tours was also responsible for fitting it with an air pump and air brakes, something it never had on the BEDT.
Author:  Howard P. [ Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14
BEDT 16 never left the Isle of Long since it's arrival in Brooklyn many years ago. 16 is the one that sat "abandoned" at the last BEDT brooklyn terminal for years before going to RMLI not long ago.

I pretty sure the BEDT engine at BR&W was George Hart's #14.
Author:  EDM [ Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14
Interesting coincidence that the 14 and 148, two one-time Black River engines, show up on RYPN a the same time. I was an early volunteer at BR&W, but the 14 made it's last run the year before I started. The late Sam Freeman, at the time BR&W's General Manager and 148's owner, told me that in addition to boiler capacity issues, the axle bearings ran hot. The first few trips were OK, but by the the third, fourth and fifth trip they were dangerously hot.

Each round trip was ten miles, every hour and a half. The locomotive was ideal for pulling a handful of cars off a float, sitting a few minutes while the switch is thrown, and shoving the cars on to a yard track. Road service, even with the two or three wooden coaches BR&W was using at the time, was a bit of a stretch. The engine also rode rough, trying to keep the schedule.

One neat thing about the BEDT steamers is that they were set up for one man operation. The oil throttle, atomizer and blower were all on the engineer's side. There was plenty of room, as there were no air brake valves in the way. When air brakes got added over at MPA, the firing controls got moved over to the fireman's side.

I'm sorry I never saw the engine in steam, but it was obviously not the right engine for that kind of service. 60 and 148 were much more appropriate for use at Black River.
Author:  bedt14 [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14

Greeting all BEDT Fans & Preservationists!

This post has be edited and revised.

First let me begin by introducing myself, my name is Philip M. Goldstein, and I am directly involved in the restoration of #14 along with U&DRRHS members John LaBarre, Joe Marsh, and others. I myself, in short; am obsessed with BEDT.

First, BEDT 14 is owned by the Ulster & Delaware RR Historical Society, not the Delaware & Ulster RR (tourist). Our only association with each other is the track we own is connected to their trackage by way of a switch (turnout), and the track that holds our rolling stock (#14, a 1906 NYO&W bobber and all steel flat car of unknown origin) is next to their operating railroad. Confusion is easy and common, as there are no signs denoting the difference. The U&DRRHS will be correcting that situation.

I am going to try to reply to the various postings in order:


Richard Glueck: both BEDT 14 and BEDT 16 shutdown same day. October 25, 1963, was last day of steam operations. If either were fired up on BEDT trackage after that for a shunt, it doesn't seem to be recorded.
#16 never left Brooklyn til move to RRM LI (Riverhead)
#14 ran for MA/PA in 1965, then BL&W 1965 to approximately 1968, sat idle since.
#12 sat on a siding in New Jersey after Ron Zeil purchased. His intent was to make a steam ride on LI. I think his trackage now consists of NY&A frieght trackage in West Hempstead, but it never materialized. I do need to know the date that GCRRM acquired it though, if anyone has that date.

Howard P, you are correct: 16 never left the island (read above)


Returning to the present:
#14 Restoration: We (U&DRRHS) are currently awaiting for cooler less humid weather to apply third and final coat of black. Once that cures, I will letter tank (later style yellow letters not early red/white herald) and number the cab and fuel bunker. I did the smokebox and number plate last year, and seems to impressed quite a few BEDT fans on the BEDT Steam forum located at LIRR.com

I have templates of the original letters (actual original dimensions and style) taken by me from #13 in 1988 before she was painted over. I have made an offer to RRM of Pa to letter 13, and they said they are interested. Never heard back, but now am in weekly contact with RRM of Pa in regards to technical data and reminded them of my offer, and they are condsidering my offer in earnest. We will see if they take me up on it. I also made same offer to Mike Arnold (resto mgr for #16) who accepted offer when they are done with 16.

Any of you guys wanna take up a collection and finance a plane trip and a gallon of yellow paint for me to letter #12 down at Gulf Coast? LOL! From pix I've seen, she ready to be lettered!

Back to #14: New doors and windows are under construction and nearing completion. I just drew up the blueprints for the foot board supports, and will be to a local steel fabricator for estimation..

BEDT Steamers had steam powered brakes. There is a air brake style handle on a pedestal in the cab of which piping split to the two vertical steam cylinders under the cab (visible in front of the steps). This in turn actuated and moved a heavy square rod connected through linkage to apply the brake arms and shoes.

This arrangement leaves an huge question mark for operations: Since BEDT steamers did not use an air pump/compressor to charge the brake lines, BEDT had to close the brake valves on each car to keep the line pressurized and brakes off. What happened if a brake line broke or someone forgot to close a valve? I am trying to find out...

Only after BEDT sold the saddletankers, did the new owners installed air pumps.

The first steamers: F. Havemeyer, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 I know; , were built new by Baldwin Loco for Frederick Havemeyer and Lowell Palmer (a partner of Havemeyer & Elder and ERT) and I think 10 and 11 were as well. (I haven't come across any previous owners for 10 & 11)

Numbers 12 thorugh 16 were products of H.K. Porter in Pittsburgh, PA.
12 & 13 were built new for and came from New York (Brooklyn) Navy Yard, and 14 & 15 were ex-Mesta Machine works (5 & 4 respectively) of West Homestead, PA.. 16 had several owners; read my website to find out who! LOL

I am finding out there is a lot of bum data out there. An article in my own UDRRHS newsletter from an uneducated member (and before I became a member) says 14 was converted from coal. NEVER! 10-16 were all built as oil burners and are still, with one exception: 15 was converted to coal and only in 1998 when SRR rebuilt her as TtTE. As for the ERT engines "Havemeyer" through 9, I don't know if they were coal or oil.. Oil in 1875 is not expected, so I figure coal.

One magazine said #14 had 40" diameter drivers (supposedly original). Another stated BL&W in Ringoes retrofitted 14 with 44" drivers and didn't steam well, hence her short life with them. I just measured the drivers this past Friday, and they all are 46" .. I panicked, thinking what was done to her before we got her?? Well, I checked my original H.K. Porter catalog, and lo and behold, #14 (and 12, 13, 15 and 16) are supposed to have 46" drivers based on tractive effort, cylinder size and boiler pressure.
RRM of PA was kind enought to measure #13 - which measure out to 44.5 inches (allowing for wear, is this acceptable?)

On a happy note, the UDRRHS raised $72.37 (for only 8 hours over a two day period solicitation) from a very informal spontaneous donation jar placed at BEDT display I set up this weekend. The DURR hosted "The Little Engine That Could". (I think I can, I think I can - I think I just did. :oP )

A great deal of people came over after the Little Engine rides and asked questions and unbelievably dug into their pockets. It was refreshing to see the interest to say the least. The children begged their parents to help make the "train" run again.

It also helps enormously when it doesn't look like 128,000 pounds of rusty steel. This is the first time the U&D Society placed a donation jar during a "railfan day/event" at the D&U. We were not expecting even $20. Policy is now the U&DRRHS attends all functions with a small topic display and the jar.

For happier news, it appears that 14 (U&DRR Society decision) will be contracted to Strasburg (pending their interest, approval and schedule) for a complete restoration to operation.

Actual "in depth" discussions examinations and review have not taken place, but preliminary verbal inquiries have been answered. Dates are not firm, arrangements have not been made, but it appears the U&D Society will have funding complete by middle to end of 2007.

I'm told the Society is close to target amount of our share of funding for restoration. As I understand it, we have a matching donation for the other half if we reach our goal.

If my information is correct, Some time ago, SRR has given us a verbal, no guarantees, sight unseen, worst case scenario, ball park figure resto amount of $70k based on our verbal description of #14. Rigging and haulage at $10k for a total amount needed of $80k. Whether this figure holds true, remains to be seen upon detailed inspection of 14, by qualified personnel of SRR, if they are the shop that accepts the restoration.

How long it will take to rebuild is another matter. I can't expect long, but these restorations take time, and since SRR already rebuilt 15 into TtTE I would conclude they already have blueprinted and remanufactured bearings, rods, wheels, piping, flues, shoes, valves, links, you name it. All of 15's running gear is identical to 14, so we are fortunate to have had a template. SRR has the capacity and experience to machine additonals for #14 when time arises, and again if they accept.

I'm going to go out on a limb here: We (UD Society) are looking for at the least one of the two shield shaped HK builders plates that were on 14 (All BEDT Porters had two - one on each side of smokebox support yoke) .. They appear to have been removed after she left BEDT. We would like to acquire one to replace on the loco, but not before a new mold is made. Our plan is to make 10 bronze castings limited edition (for fundraising) and a few dozen resin, for general sale and then break the mold. Also looking for the original bell and headlight. If any of you gents can point us in the right direction, we would be indebted.

I've also been in communication with a member of the RR Museum of PA. Turns out the owner information I've been working from that was published in the 5/1990 issue of Semaphore is wrong. My website has been updated accordingly, but I figured I'd give you guys a heads up:

George Hart purchased 13 & 14 together, NOT 13 and 15. Ed Bernard purchased 15 not 14. I don't know who had the right info all along, so I apologize for any confusion. I wasn't aware this data from that publication was so suspect. I expect minor details to be wrong, like the when, but not the who.

I'm glad I am dedicating my time to BEDT like I am now, so it's finally getting corrected and urban legends put to rest!

Now, I got a treat for all you gents: I will be receiving copies of the entire BEDT file held by RRM PA, including photos 13's move to RRMPa and of the move of 14 from BEDT to MA/PA RR and MA/PA to BRW. Also included is correspondance from Mr. Hart to BEDT and vice versa.

As such, these will be added to my website, and all correspondance, hopefully will be scanned for viewing.

As stated, the U&DRRHS is gearing up for contracting out 14 for restoration to operation (as mentioned above), I came up with an idea that this member of RRM of PA feels would be a great railfan event, if SRR accepts:

For the first time in over 30 years, if SRR accepts the request for rebuild; and when and if 14 arrives in Strasburg, this will be the first time that 3 of 5 BEDT engines will be in such close proximity to each other (13, 14 & 15
[even though 15 is dressed like a proper English chap])

So, the idea was this, once 14 is complete, the idea was to steam her with 15 across the street to be with 13, and have a photo shoot. A lot of if's and and's. Naturally, proper planning, permission and execution of this idea would have to follow proper administrative channels within the State of PA and SRR.

I would also figure some rearranging is necessary to get 13 from the back to the front of the museum yard, but it would not be impossible. How many of you are willing to venture to Pennsylvania for this event? I'm already packed! LOL.

So, first step is getting 14 restored.. please contact: treasurer@udrrhs.org for info on contributions to the BEDT 14 restoration fund. U&D is a 504C not-for-profit organization and contributions are tax deductable.

I don't wish to sound like I'm plugging for money, but this locomotive is close to being able to operate. There aren't that many now. All that is needed is a professional locomotive shop to do the work.

Closer in scheduling is a railfan day at end of July at the D&U Railroad in Arkville, where the U&D Society will be set up with my BEDT Display. I would be most appreciative if those of you who are local enough to turn out to show interest and support.. Besides, I'd like to meet you. I can almost guarantee it will make thing move quicker if there was a more visible fan base to restore 14 to operation. I myself have to get firm date, cause I forgot it! (Dedicated member I am!!!)

Updates as warranted! If there is any information you gents need, questions answered, or just want to see lots of BEDT pics; go to my website at the link: http://members.aol.com/bedt14/BEDT.html

It's there to share!

Best Wishes, Phil

[color=darkred]
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14
Ron Ziel owned #12, but kept it stored in the Jersey Meadows yard, with very little maintainence. George Foster, who co-authored two books with Ziel, purchased #16, but never moved it off the BEDT property. Both men aspired to create the "Sag Harbor and Scuttle Hole Rail Road" in eastern Long Island, rebuilding the old Sag Harbor branch of the LIRR, which had been abandoned in the 30's. At the time, rebuilding the railbed was possible. Sadly, the railroad never got beyond the acquisition of a Pennsy Parlor car, an ex-NYC wooden caboose, a promised CNJ observation car, andthe two locomotives.
Eventually, Ziel's Porter tank loco was sold, passing through several hands until it wound up where it is today. Foster's #16 eventually wound up at the RMLI, in Riverhead, where it sits off it's drivers.
While #14 was on the BR&W, it was painted green and grey, and looked pretty sharp, too! According to sales documentation from BEDT company, #14 was the last serviced with remaining boiler time on her.
Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14
bedt14 wrote:


BEDT Steamers had steam powered brakes. There is a air brake style handle on a pedestal in the cab of which piping split to the two vertical steam cylinders under the cab (visible in front of the steps). This in turn actuated and moved a heavy square rod connected through linkage to apply the brake arms and shoes.

This arrangement leaves an huge question mark for operations: Since BEDT steamers did not use an air pump/compressor to charge the brake lines, BEDT had to close the brake valves on each car to keep the line pressurized and brakes off. What happened if a brake line broke or someone forgot to close a valve? I am trying to find out...



This is the common "steam jam" brake arrangement, also used on logging lines that didn't use train brakes. It makes sense when trains are short, speeds slow, and the cars aren't going very far; if you're not going to use the air brakes on the cars, why bother to maintain air compressors at all?

I'm sure that switching was handled the same way it was, and still is, done on the class ones; the brake bleed valves are pulled on the cars, which drains the air system completely. Now the brakes are totally inoperative, so are no longer an issue. The hand brakes are, of course, still operational.

That begs the question, what are you going to do for train brakes? I know of one group in northern Illinois that operates a tiny Hiesler w/o air brakes (Stephenson County) but they've taken great pains to make themselves insular, so as not to come under FRA jurisdiction. You guys seem to have a connection to the general rail system, so that tactic won't work for you.
Author:  bedt14 [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14

Dennis:
Many thanks for the run down on steam jam brakes I would have like to seen it in person to actually view the operation.. BR&W added a pump to left side of smoke box, and ran brake lines, so the equipment is there. Whether it can be made to function or new/rebuilt ones are required, time will tell. There are grades on the trackage intended for use, so it is intended to employ airbrakes.

The U&D Society at present time is not connected with any Class 1's. Matter of fact, we aren't even an operating RR. That may not hold true when #14 is restored to operation. Even then, whether we are considered an insular operation and not subject to FRA regs, I don't know, as that is not my purview and I have no experience in the matter..

In response to Richard's post;

I found traces of green and gray on number plate.. on top of the red & yellow BEDT numbers. I was wondering where that came from. On top of the green and gray was the white 14 seen in the BRW photos.

Thanks for location for Zeil LI ambitions. I figure it's public railfan knowledge, but I thought I'd ask first: mind if I post on my site?

According to my sales prospectus from BEDT, from James D. Mead; (VP Equip & Structures for BEDT), the folowing servicing was performed on:

#14
Flues: January 3, 1963
Lagging: January 3, 1963
23-B: January 3, 1963
Hydrostatic Test: January 3, 1963

#16
Flues: March 1, 1962
Lagging: March 1, 1962
23-B: March 1, 1962
Hydrostatic Test: March 1, 1962

A scan of this document is on my website, and it also shows serving dated for the remaining BEDT locos.

Thanks gents for your time!
Phil
Author:  Dave [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14
I have seen (and worked on) conversions from steam jam to straight air on industrial steam locomotives before - it is probable that the steam cylinders will need to be replaced with air cylinders to get comparable braking force given diameter and pressure differences, but shoving the same beams and rods will probably do just fine. 6ET would make a good historically appropriate retrofit air system, as would K14, but a lot of guys prefer a more modern system with consumable parts available off the shelf. I'd be careful about rubber components possibly deteriorating in the presence of good air oils for steam compressors, such as Estrolene, whichever system goes in. One little O-ring or gasket softens and deforms and your whole day gets ruined.

A couple phone calls to Bernie and PAB should solve the majority of the problems, and provide the majority of the parts.

dave
Author:  tomgears [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14
Phil and everyone,

WOW! Thanks for all of the information. What a great thread.
Author:  bedt14 [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BEDT 14
I have spoken with Mr. Bell by telephone.

Mr. Bell is correct, and neither the Railroad Museum of PA or himself personally endorses any special event, inclusive of a reunion of BEDT engines.

I myself, understand completely the chain of command that needs to be followed in matters such as these, especially concerning a State Museum of such professionalism and prestige.

I will make this clear: for Mr. Bell, neither he nor the Railroad Museum of PA has become involved, nor has started any chain of events. It was merely a suggestion / idea / hypothesis.

If I did not make this clear in my post, then I apologize to all parties involved.

Many thanks to all and once again, my sincerest apologies for any in conveniences caused.

Philip M. Goldstein
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/