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| Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21094 |
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| Author: | Matt Bumgarner [ Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
Is there a prevailing sentiment in the preservation world on using vinyl decals for lettering & striping versus taping & paint (or stencils & paint)? Thanks in advance, Matt Bumgarner |
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| Author: | Railbreaker [ Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
I have seen an example of vinyl decals used on a car with rivets. After a couple of years of weathering, the vinyl cracks and peals where the decals went over the rivet heads. I think this was a quick make it look nice for very little money kind of paint job. Ed |
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| Author: | p51 [ Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
Railbreaker wrote: I have seen an example of vinyl decals used on a car with rivets. After a couple of years of weathering, the vinyl cracks and peals where the decals went over the rivet heads. I think this was a quick make it look nice for very little money kind of paint job.
Ed It could also be an easy "re-paint" for all those times that tourist RRs seem to want to mark up equipment for a special event. I know Tweetsie has decals on their engines so they can markl up ET&WNC #12 as an actual pre-war ET loco from time to time. I also know SP&S 700 has decals. I'm sure that made it easy for the time they made her up like a NP engine... |
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| Author: | Greg Schultz [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
When another volunteer and I painted the Hocking Valley (former Air Force) BLH #4005 we used decals for the numbers and lettering. They went on quick and seem to be standing up well. |
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| Author: | Stephen S. Syfrett [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
I have used vinyl lettering so far on 2 ACL boxcar restorations and a steam loco. The boxcars were completed about 18 months ago and are not under cover. I worked with a local commercial sign company to produce the graphics. So far I have noted no problems. We did, however, make sure to scuff up the surface a bit and then clear-coated over the lettering and the rest of the carbody once the lettering was attached. Where the lettering was to be over a rivet, we decided to cut out a hole around the rivet and then use a matching-color paint (in this case, the same type PPG automotive finish paint we used for the main body color) to paint the rivets and seal up the edge of the cut vinyl. This was also done before the clear coat was applied, so everything was sealed up. I did this because of problems with older (and some not-so-old) vinyl lettering and striping I had seen where the edges had released and started curling up. In restoring our Southern Ry. baggage express car, we used vinyl stencils, which were removed as soon as the lettering color was sprayed on and set up enough. Then the whole thing was clear coated. The loco lettering is more protected, being under a shed, and is also less extensive than the lettering applied to the ACL boxcars. So far, so good, but I guess "time will tell". Just like with painting, surface prep is very important when applying vinyl lettering. Give the surface some "tooth" and then apply a UV protective clear coat to seal it up and I think we have a finish that will last for many years. |
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| Author: | Martyhuck [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
Both have their place. We are having vinyl letters made for our temporary re-numbering for our up-coming Railfan's Weekend. But we paid a sign painter to hand letter the tender of 464. We had a pounce pattern for the flying Rio Grande, but it still took skill to get it looking right. Of course if you are a museum you really should duplicate the original lettering as accurately as possible - not just size and style, but application. Of course, I'm prejudiced - for several years I shared a shop with an old-fashioned sign painter. In my opinion vinyl will never look as good as One -Shot! |
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| Author: | Bob Kutella [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
I prefer painting and use One Shot lettering enamel exclusively. If you are tracing the old lettering before removal, this is an advantage since you can pounce it, or cut it to a stencil. With vinyl, you will need an electronic file in some specialized format to have a company with sign cutter equipment cut them out. That can be expensive just for the graphics work if no one is available with the program and computer skills. Another advantage to using paint is that there is some flexibility to exactly color match the lettering while there are a limited number of vinyl based roll stocks - and you may have to invest in an entire roll if the company you are using to cut then does not have it, or any future use for it. Twelve inch vinyl rolls have a wider selection, but anything larger (wider) really jacks up the cost. And vinyl is not exactly simply peel and stick. There is a learning curve for that process also. The vinyl end product can be exactly matched for color through a printing process but many small sign shops cannot do this and going to an outfit that does bus wraps, for example, will really educate you as to costs! And if there is a logo or slogan that is multi color, paint is a lot easier. (One of our tank cars has a three color 'HAVOLINE' graphic, over rivets, and this would probably have been nearly impossible with vinyl.) That said, we received a boxcar donated and restored by the Thrall Company, and they chose to use all vinyl 'decals' for the rather extensive lettering. To my eye it seems the fonts are very simplified and probably lifted directly from one of the many Windows TT or PS font files. But since the car building company did it it is certainly prototypical - - - Vinyl can be very expensive if you are reproducing a logo or slogan that is quite large, and there may be register problems since it will almost certainly have to be pieced together. Lots to consider in an overall project where only two sets of lettering may be all that is needed. Bob Kutella |
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| Author: | Flagg [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
In our experience vinyl doesn't stand up to power washing and steam cleaning every week as well as paint. |
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| Author: | scrmcurator [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
When we restored our B&O caboose a few years ago, the volunteer coordinating it got vinyl decals for the lettering and had them professionally applied. They've held up well, even with our chronic lineside brush problems (the car is one we use). Since then, we've gotten another volunteer who's got sign painting skills, so the rest of our stuff has been done the old-fashioned way. If you've got somebody with the skills, it's certainly cheaper to use paint. |
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| Author: | Steamteam91 [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
At the M&H we had 91 done in vinyl decals and the lettering on the passenger cars. It seems to be holding up very well for being 10 years old.. |
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| Author: | Jim Lundquist [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
How about both. Apply the lettering paint first, then cover it with vinyl lettering. Finish painting the car/loco with the final color, and peal off the vinyl. Works for us. |
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| Author: | fkrock [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
Something to beware: Decals frequently use print fonts rather than the variations used by sign painters. For example, serifs often will have rounded ends rather than sharp points when they are hand painted. If you use print fonts, the lettering won't look quite right but usually you don't know why. This is a very common problem with decals sold for model railroad use. It is a problem if you use computer cut adhesive stencils. Museums should try to use authentic methods whenever possible. You can see the difference. However, decals do look better than crudely hand lettered equipment. BTW some railroads started using decal lettering beginning in the 1930's. fk |
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| Author: | RR_GraphixGuy [ Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
Jim Lundquist wrote: How about both.
Apply the lettering paint first, then cover it with vinyl lettering. Finish painting the car/loco with the final color, and peal off the vinyl. Works for us. Jim has the right idea. It is possible to use the best of both worlds, and it is worth the little extra you'll pay in materials. If you can find the right kind of sign shop that is willing to be flexible, you can have them order a special masking vinyl that works great for this particular application, and then tell them to cut a reverse stencil. (The cutting process on the computer and cutter is the same, the only difference is that the signmaker will remove the other part of the vinyl from the carrier.) Some sign shops even keep the stuff in stock for their own use, so maybe you won't have to wait for them to order it. What makes the masking vinyl so special is the adhesive is not as tacky and is made to be removed without damaging the underlying paint job. Think of it as stick-on stencils. The end result is accurate, straight lettering that is durable because it's painted. You also have the benefit of the wide variety of colors that paint has to offer. One downside could be that each stencil could be used only once (unless there are some tricks the sign guys know that I'm not aware of.) Another downside is that you still have to pay for the materials and cutting of your lettering on vinyl, but you shouldn't have to pay as much as you would for a quality outdoor vinyl. The last vinyl supplier catalog that was sent to me shows that a basic masking vinyl is roughly half the cost of an outdoor vinyl with a 7 to 10 year durability. If I can answer any other questions you have about this topic, feel free to send me a private message or e-mail. - Mike |
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| Author: | Bob Kutella [ Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Vinyl decals vs. Paint ?? |
Masks are the way to go IF you only have a single color involved and no outlining, casing, or shadowing. I am not familiar with vinyl masking but we have also obtained basically sheets of straight masking tape material on backing, computer cut in reverse stencils. Someone still needs to produce the graphics and this method can be cost effective and produce a good job if you can get a volunteer with the software and skills. Railroads also used "regular" stencils which could be made of heavy cardboard or even of thin gauge metal. These were especially utilized in large classes of identical cars where some or all the lettering was repeated. Sometimes the drop outs or lines left behind could be minimized, especially on brass metal stencil plates which used wire soldered on to hold the interior segments in register. On larger missing blanks, depending on the equipment, it was retouched after the stenciling. That is, for passenger equipment the extra time was invested to finish the job, whereas smaller notations and data like dimensional and test reporting on freight cars was left as the raw stenciled material. As a rule of thumb, for a staring point, all lettering 2 inches and smaller in the 'modern era' (say 1930 onward) was left as raw stenciled characters and larger items were usually retouched. I have seen a photo from the Pullman works, maybe near the turn of the 20th century where a half dozen guys were doing the retouching on the elaborate striping and filigree on a wood passenger car. The use of decals does date back decades, but those were true decals using water slide material such as manaufacted back then by companies such as Meyercord. The North Shore interurbans made extensive use of such water slide decals as did the Chicago Surface Lines, including heralds, car numbers, and notes ranging from "Enter at Front" to switch cabinet and other informational data. These were generally sealed with a coat of clear varnish. What we are discussing here as vinyl decals might be more properly described as appliques. A relatively early use of vinyl would be railroad heralds, especially multicolored, which were applied to metal plates, and these 'medallions' were bolted or mechanically fastened to the sides of the equipment. Bob Kutella |
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