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| Cosmetic Rivet Replacement https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21264 |
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| Author: | Dale Grice [ Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
Hi all, I am working on a section of rusted out cab side. Welding will be employed to put new metal in place. But I would like have the rivet detail replaced also. I have read/heard about huck bolts. Looks like it is somwhat costly for a dozen rivets as the pnuematic/hydralic machine would need to be procured. Round head screws with welded up and gound slots puts more labor into to project. Any other alternatives out there that you have had success with? Thanks, Dale |
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| Author: | Howard P. [ Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
About 20 years ago, we were able to obtain what were called "rib-neck" bolts-- essentially a carrige bolt for steel. These had a plain round head (a bit "flatter" in profile than a rivet) and about 8-10 ribs under the head, parallel to the shaft of the bolt. They could be driven into a drilled hole with a heavy hammer and then lock washered and nutted up on the back side. I haven't seen anything like these in McMaster-Carr, but they might be available elsewhere. Another way is to use the recessed hex round head bolts, and simply fill the hex recess-- this could even be mig-welded and hit with a grinder. Hope this all helps! |
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| Author: | Dale Grice [ Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
Hi Howard, Thanks for the quick reply. I did see those. Mcmaster-carr does still carry them and I was considering using them. Dale |
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| Author: | Brian Norden [ Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
Two places that have made up new welded tender tanks and placed fake rivet heads on them are Strasburg and the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic. Maybe someone can tell us what they did. |
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| Author: | oermsam [ Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
At OERM we also have optained basicly large round headed bolts with not slot in them. If your not doing a long section of metal replacement or their just for looks, these are a great option. Their head profile looks very close to acctual rivet heads. You can get back to me and I can find out where we get them. |
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| Author: | Stephen S. Syfrett [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
Dale, Why not use real rivets? We used regular rivets in replaced sheet metal areas on the tender of Georgia Northern 107 by simply placing the rivet into a predrilled hole and welding it in place from behind. As long as it is strictly cosmetic, it works great and looks right on the side that counts. If they actually hold parts together and require some level of structural strength, as I suspect may be the case since you mention huck bolts, this may not work for you. We did use rivets in a couple of places where they were inserted, heated and then hammered to a flare on the back side. The results were okay, but not as good as I hoped. I have used carriage bolts where they actually hold two pieces together, and from a distance the difference is hard to see. Up close the difference is much more apparent, especially if you have original fasteneres (rivets) nearby. As another observation, carriage bolts have a slightly rounded periphery so as to not cut wood fibers at the attachment point. There is an apparent gap around the edge of the head of a carriage bolt between it and the flat metal surface it rests against. Rivets have a flat back and periphery, so they sit flush to the metal surface. I have noticed the appearance of rust around the heads of some carriage bolts used in a freight car restoration, but not around the rivet heads. We also considered the recessed hex round head bolts, but decided against them because of the need to fill the hole and grinding the weld down once installed. |
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| Author: | Bob Kutella [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
Huck bolts DO work in a structural sense and are available in a variety of heads. But those I have seen look nothing like rivets. As to the machine for installing, we have been able to get a loaner from our distributor for a nominal rental for a day or two, after ordering and purchasing the fasteners from him. Huck bolts were used extensively in repairs on some of our GATX shopped reefers, and we have used them in frame repairs and where you cannot get at the rear of a 'blind' fastener application. Hot riveting is not that hard to do depending on the size of the rivet needed. Smaller sizes, up to 3/8 or so, can probably even be peened cold. In our other work the rivet is heated first and inserted in a correctly prepared hole. Pneumatic rivet guns make short work of the rest. If you have never done it, it might take a few 'practice' rivets to get them completely peened and the back peen correctly formed and centered. Keep the rivet gun 'normal' to the surface and do not let it drift sideways. Bob Kutella |
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| Author: | Dave [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
Sodt iron rivets can be driven cold. Steel will need to be heated. Copper is costly, and work hardens. Anybody know of any aluminum rivets, other than Pop? I have welded and glued in real rivets for good cosmetic effect. Could you possibly equip a turret lathe with a threaded chuck and turn the heads round on standard bolts? Ought to be able to knock out many in a couple hours. Glue in the bolts at the underside of the head, and apply nuts when the glue dries. dave |
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| Author: | museumops [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
I’m not a machinist but, if you used a standard rivet of a nominal size like ¼” or 3/8” and thread them you could use a standard hex nut and washer on the backside. This would give you that real rivet look with relatively little work. |
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| Author: | Alan Maples [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
We had replacement side sheets put on a caboose with the rivets "faked". I believe our welder put holes in the sheets, put the rivet in, cut it off on the backside, welded around the head, then ground it clean. A bit tedious, but I wasn't going to tell the man how to do his job, and it gave us a good seal that won't allow any water in. I think Strasburg's method was covered either in a "Brief" or in this forum, but I seem to recall it involved welding threaded studs to the sheets and then securing on a rivet head that had been drilled and tapped. At TVRM, two methods were employed in the repair of a Pullman car. Where new drip edge was installed against an existing sheet, it was attached using a split rivet that has a center drive pin; once hammered in and painted it looks just like a regular rivet. Like a pop rivet, it only works where you are putting two sheets together and not with a heavy structural member. The other method involved threading the old rivet hole and using slotted machine screws to attach the sheet; the railroads themselves used this procedure in later years. After painting, the screw slot isn't noticeable from a distance but could probably be filled with body putty if need be. Alan Maples |
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| Author: | jasonsobczynski [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
Dale, Steel rivets, that is the size that would be used in a cab, can be cold driven. Southeastern once had a large quantity of rivets(verl old stock in wooden keg, the good stuff that works easily) from about 1/4 body up to 1, as well as all of the required air hammers. All that would need doing is the fabrication of a sufficient weight bucking bar. In fact, I will be in Georgia for a week or so in october....could it wait til then I would be more than willing to give a tutorial on riveting. Let me know, my number has not changed.............Jason |
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| Author: | PRRK4s [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
Dale, Our NRHS is restoring a Cabin Car and we used Huck Bolts in the rebuilding. Major rust damage dictated we rebuild the bootom of the sides. This required dupication of the rivets. The Huck Bolt heads we used were just a tad smaller than the surrounding rivet but you really had to look to see the difference. We got our Huck Bolts at a place called Fas-N-All in our area. Not sure if they are nation wide or not. We could purchase what we needed, from a few to a gross, although we needed many and bought boxes. Not sure of the FRA rules for their use but I think the head is supposed to be on the inside and the collar exposed to the outside for easy FRA inspection. This was observed at a railcar repair shop. For our NRHS project we placed the head to the outside to replicate a rivet head. In several places we couldn't get the Huck Gun to fit over the collar properly so we welded the shaft to the inside of the hole, and you would never know the difference. That may be your best option. Heck you may even be able to Liquid Nail them in place if it is for cosmetic use only. One word on the aluminum rivet someone mentioned. Never use aluminum with steel. You get a reaction to the metals and corrosion sets in pretty quickly.....Gary |
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| Author: | Linn W. Moedinger [ Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
Round head hex socket screws work well and hold the filler better than slots. The threaded stud method we used was in deference to the stud welder outfit where little imagination was to be found. Rivet heads are now snapped in place in one shot with the stud welder. |
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| Author: | Ted Miles [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
Folks, At the Maritime Park we have used both Huck Bolts and real revits. we had to bring in an "Old timer" who has repaired AALiberty ships to teach the local ship yard how to do some reviting on out ships. The real thing looks and acts just the way they should. Ted Miles |
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| Author: | Dale Grice [ Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cosmetic Rivet Replacement |
All, Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll post the results when we get it done. Seems I recall a process where the railraod industry used a threaded fastner with a round rivet head and a sqare drive post on top of the rivet head. You screwed it into a threaded hole with a large amount of torque and the sqare shank broke off. A little grinding to clean up the break area and smoothing the round head of the rivet gave you a rivet like looking result. Dale |
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