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| Static Display vs. Operation https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21265 |
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| Author: | Jim Baker [ Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Static Display vs. Operation |
Is there a general consensus as to which would be a better interpretation of STEAM to the general public: a static display of several types of non-operational locomotives (rod with tender, tank engine, geared, Mallet, etc) OR a smaller display, but with an operational locomotive? Along the same line, what if you had a collection of half a dozen or so non-operational steam engines, one of which was fairly rare. You didn't see any really feasable way to raise the money to restore any of them to operation. But, someone comes along and offers you enough money to restore one of the engines if you sold the rare one to him. Would you sacrifice the rare one to get another engine in operation? I'll probably get as many responses one way as the other, and I know these things can get pretty emotional. But it would be helpful to see what opinions are out there. Thanks. Jim Baker |
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| Author: | rrmuseum [ Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Static Display vs. Operation |
Jim, Do yourself and your organization/museum/historical society a favor and first ask yourself how many of the pieces in question fit your collection/accession policy. If you don't have a written policy, create one. You can't possbily make intelligent accession/deaccession decisions without a policy that defines who or what your organization wants to be. Good luck in your decision. |
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| Author: | Bob Kutella [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Static Display vs. Operation |
A true preservation mission is probably best served by static display and getting them housed under roof. As to the 'rare' one vs the others, aren't essentially all steam locos "RARE" today? From the standpoint of a public visitor and from the romantic notion of a fan, an operating steam loco is a dream and goal shared by many. Many of those visiting today have never seen a loco fired up and films and videos just do not do it justice from an interpretive standpoint. You do not feel the ground tremble as it goes by, feel the heat radiating from the firebox, or experience the smells of hot oil and smoke. But just as surely as you get one running, and it will attract more visitors, realize that you are using up or CONSUMING that engine. It will sooner or later require repairs due to the operation you are doing, and that may be both expensive and extensive. In some cases repairing the engine and attempting to preserve the 'historic fabric' of the artifact are not feasible in todays world, or there may be no way to do it at any cost. So more modern materials and methods may be employed creating a new 'history' for that engine. As Scott said, look at your mission, your goals, and your long range plans. And by the way, visit some of the other museums and preservation sites to see how things are being done elsewhere. And try to get some idea of the scope of both a locomotive restoration, and the work needed to maintain an operation from the equipment standpoint but also the railroad right of way and accomodations for the visiting public.Good luck Bob Kutella |
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| Author: | Dave [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Static Display vs. Operation |
Another possibility is sharing a working steam locomotive for special events. Common in the UK, it is just starting to be done here. Right now the Gramling's saddletanker is available by arrangement, working primarily in the Great Lakes region. EUREKA has made a couple road trips if you are 3 foot gage. There are some smaller engines in California that possibly could travel. Whether the B&O Museum would let MASON out, or if their Porter 0-4-0 will come online soon, perhaps Sandy or somebody from there could answer. NHVRR might send their Vulcan out in the southeast - what do you think, Bob? dave |
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| Author: | Kevin Gillespie [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | B&O Museum Steam |
The Mason, and 0-4-0T #4 will both be operating the weekend of October 7 and 8 at the B&O Museum, for their Steam Days weekend. The 0-4-0T (Porter, 1950) has been fully repaired following the damage it received in the roof collapse on February 16, 2003. Also operating will be the Tom Thumb and 4-2-0 "Lafayette" replicas. Since the replicas were built in 1927, they are quickly becoming antiques in their own right. At this time, I plan to be in San Antonio that weekend, so will miss the spectacle myself. |
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| Author: | bobyar2001 [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Make sure the money's there first |
I can't imagine anyone here that would rather see a dead, cold steam locomotive than a hot, live one. However, the "someone" who offers money needs to really have it before committing a locomotive to dismantling. There are too many engines in pieces now that enthusiastic volunteers once had great dreams of sitting at the throttle of, but the money and will to finish the project simply were not there. This can lead to loss of vital, almost irreplaceable parts as the years pass, and degradation of the artifact. Any return-to-steam project should have all the money in place before tearing into it, with enough funds to hire a steam expert who really knows what they are doing. Volunteers can help do the dirty and dumb work, but things like boiler welding are not for novices. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Make sure the money's there first |
How much money, Bob? Anybody who can look at a cold rusty engine and tell you how much time and money it will take to make it run down the track should be immediately removed from consideration - it is impossible. Estimates subject to change as hidden facts become known, with a very broad contingency, better. Commitment to an open-ended project isn't anything that should be taken lightly. dave |
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| Author: | bobyar2001 [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Make sure the money's there first |
Best to figure on a worst case scenario and be happy if it turns out better. If groups cannot afford a qualified professional to thoroughly check out the engine before starting, then they should work toward a cosmetic restoration instead. All I was saying was, that there are a number of dismantled locomotives around that over-eager enthusiasts tore apart, then abandoned for one reason or another. Even some reputable museums have more engines apart than they have money or labor to complete. There have been a few good success stories, but too many failures, and those of us who like steam locomotives are getting steadily older. |
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| Author: | csxvet [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: B&O Museum Steam |
Kevin Gillespie wrote: The Mason, and 0-4-0T #4 will both be operating the weekend of October 7 and 8 at the B&O Museum, for their Steam Days weekend. The 0-4-0T (Porter, 1950) has been fully repaired following the damage it received in the roof collapse on February 16, 2003.
Also operating will be the Tom Thumb and 4-2-0 "Lafayette" replicas. Since the replicas were built in 1927, they are quickly becoming antiques in their own right. The Mason won't be operating -- a loose pilot wheel was discovered, and a new axle must be fabricated. I wasn't aware that the Tom Thumb and Lafayette were to run, but maybe so. In any event, the #4 will do all the heavy lifting. Herb Harwood |
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| Author: | John Bohon [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Static Display vs. Operation |
When the general public looks at a static steam locomotive they have no idea what they are looking at or what any of the parts do. Signs help a little as does an explanation from someone who actually has at least a vague idea what they are talking about. Still they go away generally unimpressed. When the public views a steam locomotive running not only are they quickly educated on what the parts do but they are also very impressed. The bigger the locomotive or the harder it is working the bigger the impression. I am a firm believer that the only way to display a steam locomotive and have the public at least somewhat understand what it is and does is for the locomotive to be running. I also think it is important for them to see it in action from lineside as well as from the inside of a coach where little is scene but the smoke. John Bohon |
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| Author: | Mark S Bassett [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Its the KNOWLEDGE! |
The real question is not whether a steam locomotive should operate or not. The real issue is to preserve the knowledge. For without that knowledge base; it becomes academic on whether a steam locomotive should operate or not. And the only way to maintain and have that knowledge base grow and flourish is to operate the locomotive. Yes you will “consume” some of the historic fabric, but that has been happening since the day the locomotive was built. The real question is, can you solve the problems, to keep a steam locomotive operating. Starting last year, we made a commitment to operating steam locomotives daily from the 4th of July to Labor Day and then on weekends the rest of the time. This daily operation really puts stress on the crew. BUT it also teaches the crew the intricacies and the idiosyncrasies of operating steam locomotives. This is not something you can read about in a book. It is something you must experience. Let’s face it, the only way to truly learn steam, is to do it. And doing it once or twice a year isn’t the way you are going to learn anything. In 2004, we had 40 torn down for new tubes. In the middle of the project, Jack Anderson, our CMO, died suddenly. When he died his knowledge went with him. Here all of a sudden, I was faced the problem of putting 40 back together. I’ve written about the challenge of keeping steam going and it is posted on our website here’s the link Conundrum: http://www.nevadanorthernrailway.net/th ... 093005.htm There are a couple of others that you might find of interest. Preservation Paradox: http://www.nevadanorthernrailway.net/th ... 121704.htm And Preservation Paradox PT2 http://www.nevadanorthernrailway.net/th ... 122404.htm If your organization is serious about steam, you need a plan BEFORE you commit to steam or selling that “rare” loco. This plan would have a mission statement, with goals and objectives. Is that “rare” locomotive part of your preservation mission? If it is not, then sell it and rebuild a steamer. BUT restoring a steam is only a small part of the steam equation. Having an operating steam locomotive is the easy part. Where are you going to put your ashes? What are you going to do with your ashes? (They’re considered a hazardous waste.) Or if an oil burner, do you want to accept waste oil? Do you have a place to store it that meets all current environmental regulations? Do you have a shop, with working equipment? Who will do your maintenance? What happens if a staybolt breaks? Who will train your fireman and engineers? Does the person have passenger experience?!? How about your neighbors? Will they object to a smelly, smoky, steam locomotive in their backyard? And can you financially support steam operations? Not just today but 1, 3, 5, or 10 years down the track? Figure three hours of maintenance for every hour of operation. The starting point is the PLAN! You will need to spend hundreds of hours with the stakeholders developing the plan. Once you have done this, you will be able to develop a roadmap, and move forward. But you need the PLAN, first. |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Static Display vs. Operation |
Invoke my name, will you? A reminder that, although I may live close enough to the B&O Museum to cough in its direction and contaminate it, I do not have direct dealings with it on a regular basis. Nonetheless, I view the odds as slim to none of anything leaving the B&O Museum for another site even temporarily, save for a possible event at the (now-affiliated) Ellicott City RR Station Museum. The reason is not the B&O Museum's alone. Most rail museums and operations in the United States apparently have little to no inclination to recognize that other operations exists, or that if they do they are to be regarded as competition or rivals rather than as partners in a common cause. Now, there are certainly exceptions to this. Even the B&O Museum has helped out others, most recently with the lease of RDC 9913 to the fledgling Fayette Central excursion ride in Pennsylvania. (A cynic may well ask why they leased out an operable car better suited to the passenger loads of their one-mile Mt. Clare shuttle trips on the "First Mile" than the three-car train they use instead. Courtney Wilson himself told me it was because the visitors of the museum, largely urban, compared the RDC ride to "a bus" and not the train they wanted.) But by and large, museums and excursion lines reject the possibilities of in-kind trades, short-term leases/visits, etc. that have become rather popular in the UK--unless, like in the case of Thomas the Tank Engine, there's major moolah to be made. There are other factors at work as well--the smaller size of most UK locos, the lack of cooperation from main-line railroads, the smaller size of the UK, etc. But the motivation has to be there first. And I see no motivation for, just as a wild and crazy example, Strasburg to borrow/lease Andy Muller's 4-6-2 #425 and run it for a slow season of photo charters, or some enterpreneur to lease Chinese #1658 from what's left of the Knox & Kane......... |
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| Author: | Dave [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Static Display vs. Operation |
Certainly - with respect for your not only knowing what is going on in your backyard, but across the pond as well. The more I think about it the more a touring steamer makes sense to me - something small enough to transport on its own special rig, with expenses shared between several operators. dave |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Static Display vs. Operation |
Well, think about it: You'd have to find something that is both small enough to transport easily by road, historic enough to get attention and warrant people coming out to see it, and something "nomadic", i.e. something that people could relate to whether in Pennsylvania, Florida, Wisconsin, Arizona, or wherever, with no firm ties to one area (say, like a PRR or FEC loco), yet big enough to actually pull something besides a tender and flat car. There's a WHOLE BUNCH of such locos cluttering those sugar plantation lines in Cuba! (Okay, okay, I'll sit down and behave now. Sheesh.) |
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| Author: | Bob Kutella [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Its the KNOWLEDGE! |
Good points Mark, and Dave, yours also. So perhaps, before the rare loco is sold and a primitive goal is set to restore one of the remaining engines, we should consider the smaller or startup preservation sites and museums. In this case Dave, your idea or concept of a traveling live steam locomotive makes more and more sense. It places a loco in presumably good repair at your site, with trained operating personnel. It allows that one engine to be shared among several sites without the tremendous cost in dollars and other resources to be spent (squandered?) on a half dozen other locos. More importantly, it allows those smaller sites to get a pretty accurate market survey of what their region will support in attendance and ticket cost - without the investment and years of work to get one restored engine of their own. Perhaps a once or twice per year event will even gain more visitors. We could argue that regular weekend operation or even daily operation breeds the familiarity and contempt that a visitor can always go see it next week, next month or next year. "SPECIAL" operations may in fact draw more than the regular interest exactly because they will not be there next week. And when you consider the above, why limit the discussion to smaller sites? Most of the larger mega museums could benefit from this and have more resources left over to be applied elsewhere on other projects. The thing that is lost will be the mechanical and operating skills, at least short term. But what are the options? If fostering and nurturing those skills are important, they come at a cost. One thing not discussed so far is the train this traveling loco will pull. If you already run a diesel powered trip, not so much of an issue. But to really make efficient and effective use of the traveling loco, I wonder if there are enough sites with enough good cars and enough good railroad? Bob Kutella |
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