Does anyone know of a source of parts for six inch piston K-1 triple valves and brake cylinder parts? We are beginning to reach the end of our supply of parts.
Thanks, Tom

ironbartom@aol.com

> Does anyone know of a source of parts for
> six inch piston K-1 triple valves and brake
> cylinder parts? We are beginning to reach
> the end of our supply of parts.
> Thanks, Tom

The piston rings for the triple vavle and/or packing cups for the brake cylinder are probably currently available from WABCo, for a price. Since you should never remove the pressure head from the cylinder when you rapack it, a new cylinder gasket isn't needed.

Some of the other rubbers goods may be current, depending upon whether the piece is used in other apparatus. What isn't "current" is MTO ("made to order") by WABCo (16 week lead time?).

They would even make a whole new valve, provided you came up with the $money$.

> Does anyone know of a source of parts for
> six inch piston K-1 triple valves and brake
> cylinder parts? We are beginning to reach
> the end of our supply of parts.
> Thanks, Tom

Be more specific on what you need. The K-1 triple valve has a 3 1/2" piston. The piston ring, which you still can get from WABTEC for around $33, has little tick marks on them. You will either have I II III or IIII. If your rings are on the 4th repair represented by 4 tick marks then your valve(s) need re-bushed. The slide valve, which you are not going to find anywhere new, are hard to come by. I really can't help you there. The graduating valve is an easy part to get. We make them ourselves. Parts for the check valve and emergency valve I can probably get for you but they will be expensive. Don't get any ideas of calling WABTEC to have them build one for you, because I doubt they even know what a K-1 is let alone make you one. All of the gaskets for the K-1 valves are still available from WABTEC. Make sure that you have the part # handy before you call. This will help them locate the parts faster. If you know the part #'s, I can find them for you a give you their price.(WABTEC) Remember, you need to test the valves after you put them back together. The Westinghouse 3-T test rack is the proper testing device for this type of valve.
Robert Geiter
Air Brake Dept.
Strasburg Rail Road

geiter3@home.com

> Don't get any ideas of
> calling WABTEC to have them build one for
> you, because I doubt they even know what a
> K-1 is let alone make you one.

If Wilmerding could make a brand new S-1 straight air valve about two years ago (saw one in the shipping department), they can make parts for a K-1. Bring money though, that S-1 had an MTO price tag of something like $1,000.

Rest assured, they know what a K-1 is. The sales people you interact with probably don't though.

It would also help to know exactly what you need, then we can supply piece numbers.

> If Wilmerding could make a brand new S-1
> straight air valve about two years ago (saw
> one in the shipping department), they can
> make parts for a K-1. Bring money though,
> that S-1 had an MTO price tag of something
> like $1,000.

> Rest assured, they know what a K-1 is. The
> sales people you interact with probably
> don't though.

> It would also help to know exactly what you
> need, then we can supply piece numbers.

A new S-1 for a $1000 is a heck of a bargain. You should of bought a few. So you are saying that they still have all of the casting patterns for the F's K's P's etc?? I find that very hard to believe.
R.Geiter

geiter3@home.com

> are saying that they still have all of the
> casting patterns for the F's K's P's etc?? I
> find that very hard to believe.

They might for Ks and Ps but probably not Fs. If they don't, they do still have the core prints.

The price on that S-1 may have been higher, but $1,000 is what rings a bell at the moment (it was made for an overseas customer).

Early on I learned that you should never underestimate Westinghouse Air Brake's abilities to make or cross reference parts from old designs to current designs. This is true of small rubber parts, older air compressor designs, etc. The lead time might be long on some of these parts, but at least they can and are willing to make them. A tour of their facilities would no doubt be very impressive.

One thing that I think the preservation community as a whole has not done (or certainly not enough) is thank WESTINGHOUSE AIR BRAKE (WABTEC) for their continued support of what are essentially obsolete designs. This even goes for the people at YOUNG TOUCHSTONE (now WABTEC) who redesigned and built a new radiator assembly for our LIMA-HAMILTON diesel a year ago.

Sometimes I order parts directly from them and more often through Pittsburgh Air Brake, but the end result is the same. I'm able to get original high quality parts that allow us to operate! Thank you Westinghouse Air Brake employees and management for your support.

David Farlow
Whitewater Valley RR



hudson.industries@worldnet.att.net

> Sometimes I order parts directly from them
> and more often through Pittsburgh Air Brake,
> but the end result is the same.

Pittsburgh Air Brake is one of the few contract and certified air brake repair shops able to work on the old style air brake valves. You will find its markings on triple valves and 6EL distributing valves across the country. The firm has a website, see below for link.

While WABCO may have parts for the old valves, the WABCO service centers only work on contemporary valves.

Brian Norden


Pittsburgh Air Brake Co., Inc.
bnorden@gateway.net

I have to correct my previous post. It was an S-3 straight air valve, not an S-1, which wasn't produced for sale. In 1909 an S-3 cost $15.00, and judging by what my wages were then, $1,000-1,500 today is quite comparable, in fact, almost a decrease in price.

WABCo pattern #1 cross references to a non-pressure head for a 12" type B brake cylinder, which weighs 39 lbs. In 1909 this cost $1.75.

If you're willing to pay, they're willing to make. If it's only rubber goods you're after, consider making your own gaskets out of neoprene sheet of the appropriate thickness. However, run a unit/price/labor cost analysis first. I recommend buying the bevel-edged, rubber check valve seats directly from WABCo.

> Pittsburgh Air Brake is one of the few
> contract and certified air brake repair
> shops able to work on the old style air
> brake valves. You will find its markings on
> triple valves and 6EL distributing valves
> across the country.

The Strasburg Railroad is also a contract air brake shop that is able to clean, repair, and test the "old style triple valves" and the #6 distributing valves. We are also equipped to clean, repair an test the C-6, C-8, and M-3 feed valves, High Speed Reducing Valves, and Type "J" & "K" slack adjusters. I can't quote any prices here, but we charge ALOT less for air brake work than most places. We have a huge stock of parts, some you can't even get anymore. About 90% of our equipment here at Strasburg is equipped with the "old style triple valve".
WABTEC is a hell of an operation. When we need something from them they get it. If they ain't got it, we make it. They do a excellent job on getting us some of the older stuff, and I thank them for that.
One last thing, how does one get certified to work on "old style triple valves". Who would certify you to do this? Details please.
R.Geiter
Air Brake Dept.
Strasburg Rail Road



geiter3@home.com

> One last thing, how does one get certified
> to work on "old style triple
> valves". Who would certify you to do
> this? Details please.

Mr. Geiter,

Pittsburgh Air Brake Company is certified by the Association of American Railroads. The AAR began certifying air brake shops about 5-6 years ago. As I recall at that time they were only certifying for present day freight car work. A look at the AAR website and its downloadable catalog will provide information about the certification.

Besides doing current brake equipment Pittsburgh Air Brake also does "old style triple valves."

There is no certification for "old style triple valves."

Brian Norden

bnorden@gateway.net

Brian,

I assume when you mention old style triple valves, this does not include UC valves. My FRA MPE inspector (Indiana)has asked for verification on valve rebuilding by a certified shop on at least one ocassion. He mentioned that he has cited other groups for rebuilding their own valves (even when they used a test rack)in the past because they were not certified. If you an insular operation perhaps this is not enforced.

As far as rubber mounting gaskets,etc., from Wabtec, the prices are always very reasonable. I'd recommend you call them or Bill Jubeck at Pittsburgh Air Brake and at least check availability and prices before trying to make your own.

David Farlow
Whitewater Valley RR

hudson.industries@worldnet.att.net

> I assume when you mention old style triple
> valves, this does not include UC valves.

A UC ("Universal Control") valve isn't a triple. It is, however, subject to the same 18 month cleaning interval that triple valves are because there are no oil reservors in the pistons with wicks to lubricate the rings and bushings.

>My FRA MPE inspector (Indiana)has asked for
> verification on valve rebuilding by a
> certified shop on at least one ocassion. He
> mentioned that he has cited other groups for
> rebuilding their own valves (even when they
> used a test rack)in the past because they
> were not certified. If you an insular
> operation perhaps this is not enforced.

This doesn't sound quite right. As far as I know, "certification" is done by the AAR, not the FRA. If you work on your own equipment, all that's required is for the work to pass a single car test (with the appropriate single car tester) on the car where the parts are to be used (a locomotive can test itself). The AAR or handling road might enforce different requirements. The inpsector might have been using "certification" as a guideline, but unless it's in the new power brake regs (haven't seen it there, but then again haven't read them in detail--the new passenger ones either) it isn't really an applicable standard. However, if I was repairing air brake apparatus, I wouldn't work on other people's stuff without a certification on account of liability considerations.

I do know that FRA inspectors look for no-no's like never-seize on brake cylinder and operating portion bolts. If you repair your own stuff and they find no-no's, it goes down in the book as a black mark against you, and there will be a close eye kept on your work for quite a while.

If you use a test rack, it and its gauges have to be tested and calibrated periodically too.

> As far as rubber mounting gaskets,etc., from
> Wabtec, the prices are always very
> reasonable. I'd recommend you call them or
> Bill Jubeck at Pittsburgh Air Brake and at
> least check availability and prices before
> trying to make your own.

Buying new is the best way to get new gaskets.

What is an "old" triple valve and what is a "new" one? It seems to me that F, H, and P types are "old", while K and L are "new" (not taking into account traction triples or the NAYB models). There are currently available D and E triples, but I don't have prices.

> Mr. Geiter,

> Pittsburgh Air Brake Company is certified by
> the Association of American Railroads. The
> AAR began certifying air brake shops about
> 5-6 years ago. As I recall at that time they
> were only certifying for present day freight
> car work. A look at the AAR website and its
> downloadable catalog will provide
> information about the certification.

> Besides doing current brake equipment
> Pittsburgh Air Brake also does "old
> style triple valves."

> There is no certification for "old
> style triple valves."

> Brian Norden

Mr. Norden,
You did not understand my question. How do you get certified on obsolete brake equipment. I realize that PAB is certified on the modern stuff. I am not questioning that. I question the fact that they are "certified" on the "old style triple valve". There are no modern test that I know of for these. The only tests out there for these are the old manuals that Westinghouse Air Brake put out. I think that the last amendment that they printed was in the mid 40's. If you can show me a up-to-date certificate, that certifies a shop to clean, repair, and test the "old style triple valves", I would gladly accept that. I do not question the work that is done at P A B. Heck, they do our plain AB stuff. We do not have a test rack for that. I'll be interested in what you find out.
R.Geiter


geiter3@home.com

The FRA essentially enforces the AAR standards from what I understand. For example, you won't find the time requirements for UC valve testing in the FRA rule, instead it refers to the appropriate industry (AAR) standard. My inspector claims that it isn't a proper job if it hasn't been done by an AAR certified shop and in this case I don't argue with him. I have a car with a K-2 valve that was rebuilt by PABCO and I understand he checked for the shop initials on it at one point during a visit. This implies to me that he sees the shop's general credentials as an important aspect, perhaps I'm reading more than I should into this though.

I am under the impression though that the Universal Control (UC) valves are under a 15 month change cycle. Is it really 18 months (obviously I hope I'm wrong) and where is that documented?

David Farlow
Whitewater Valley RR

hudson.industries@worldnet.att.net