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Live steam article https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21618	Page 1 of 1

Author:	bobyar2001 [ Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Live steam article
This Flimsies piece seems to be typical of some live steam organizations, like the one very near me (one of the largest tracks in the Northeast), which is strictly a private club. While I can understand their needs for security, plus their desire to avoid the often litigious general public, I have a problem with the "big boys with big toys" mentality. Personally, I'd rather see those problems addressed and the general public involved, with some of the interest, skills and knowledge passed on, which some live steam groups have done successfully. http://www.dailysouthtown.com/news/1157 ... 29.article Any comments?

Author:	mjanssen [ Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Live steam article
Does that mean you should have access to private car collections too? My wife? These are not public domain - we are not a communist country yet. These individuals put a lot of time and money into their passion and enjoy the fruits or their labor amongst themselves. The public does not have the RIGHT to see them – nor, if given the opportunity, would the public pay the ILS sufficiently to buy insurance to protect themselves, repair damage by vandals, and be compensated sufficiently to deal with the plethora of “experts” scrutinizing them.

Author:	bobyar2001 [ Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Live steam article
Private clubs can do most anything they want, and if playing with trains is all they want, that's their business. That's no different than amusing oneself by playing golf. But in the long run and in a bigger picture, when the old geezers (which is mostly what I see at them) at these clubs pass on, there are few left to continue the movement and pass on the knowledge. Certainly there are plenty of problems with involving the public with these little trains, but the public is often interested, much like they are with the Thomas events. Groups like the Los Angeles Live Steamers and the group at McCormack Park in Scottsdale, Arizona have handled this well. Building a live steam locomotive requires a great amount of skill and knowledge that the average person does not have, yet those who build and run them are often seen by the general public as eccentric, overgrown children, much like the Disney book "Donald Duck and his Toy Train" of long ago. This image is not helped when they secret themselves away to play with their trains. Incidently, I ran across this page concerning liability for live steam organizations, which some might find interesting: http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/magazine/73.html

Author:	JR May [ Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Live steam article
"But in the long run and in a bigger picture, when the old geezers (which is mostly what I see at them) at these clubs pass on, there are few left to continue the movement." Gosh from what I see in the Live Steam magazine and in visiting a club up in the NE, I'd say nothing could be further from the truth. There are a few old timers shown, but a vast majority are what I would call middle aged, in the 40 range or so. Lots of wives involved, kids as well. Lots of 17 year olds as well. In many ways, I suspect a lot of full sized museums could learn something from these live steam organizations. For one, private ownership is key and is a point I have hit on before. With private ownership comes funding. Lots of it. No, the article referenced really does a dis-service to the live steam hobby. Again, check out the Discover Live Steam web site and look at the photo competition. Pick up Live Steam magazine. Check out the Waushakum web site. The full sized railroad preservation movement can't even support a decent preservation magazine, yet the live steam stuff certainly can. J.R.

Author:	SZuiderveen [ Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Live steam article
Bob, I am on the BOD of a live steam organization that does run for the public; and frankly, I found the article to be reasonably balanced and factual. Illinois Live Steamers; similar to the New Jersey Live Steamers, have land-value and neighborhood situations; and even though they have each been in their locations for longer than I have been on earth if they were perceived to be "amusement parks" they would have zoning problems similar to the dinner train near Minneapolis that was nimby-ed out of existence, or like what was attempted with the Napa Valley Wine train. Also, I found their description of the insurance situation to be very accurate. We operate for the public one Sunday per "warm" month in exchange for use of a public park (the former Ross Winans estate [railway preservation content]) In the past five years our insurance for public liability has risen from $1,000/ year to three times the amount we take in at the donation box at the public station (Maryland law precludes setting fares without becoming an amusement park, with higher insurrance and impossible to meet maintenance documentation of mainly handbuilt items). Also, while it may seem elitist; live steamers have an attitude similar to the Masons; that is, you have to ask to join in on the fun. This seems to weed out the faction that wants to drop off the kids so we can baby sit them for four hours; and it weeds out those who want to hot-rod the trains. Just as the article states, we need members who will work on the track and service the grounds between operating sessions; all of our oldtimers that are not physically able to do that any more put in their time in the past 25 years. I have been a guest at both the ILS and the NJLS; it is not all that hard to get an invite. Anyone with a sincere interest can get one at almost any private live steam track I know of. And at my home track, Chesapeake and Allegheny, we will find meaningful, educational, and even fun work for members as young as 6 years old; try to find that at some of the full size steam museums! Steve Zuiderveen

Author:	wsflco [ Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Live steam article
I find these clubs can be a stepping stone for kids as an introduction to full-size preservation. The Redwood Valley Railway in Berkeley, CA (15" gauge) fostered a handful of young people back in the 60's and 70's who went onto work professionally at tourist railways throughout the West. Our Joshua Tree and Southern 15" gauge is actively seeking young people that we can pass the trade onto. FYI- Although our insurance premiums have risen substantially in the past couple of years, we do not turn away members of the public, as we are incorporated as a non-profit, and our mission is to educate. Chris Allan JT&S 15" gauge page: http://home.earthlink.net/~wsflco/jts_gsd.htm

Author:	softwerkslex [ Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Live steam article
I support the statements made, and let me explain further. A lot of these clubs were in fact reasonably open to the public in the past, but have become private for a variety of reasons, only one of which is insurance. First of all, quite honestly, most of these locations were formed as "clubs" with no formal planning or public purpose stated. They were formed as much larger versions of the typical model railroad club. Many of them are NOT incorporated as tax exempt organizations. Some of these clubs were formed on privately owned property which was not titled to the club, which led to pleasant but firm evictions when the owner died (Waushakum, Norfolk, Mass.; Goleta Valley, CA). Many, many of these clubs were formed on rural house lots, which today are really suburban neighborhoods. The sites are really quite small, no larger than a few acres or a healthy upscale suburban plot. They look a lot bigger in the photographs! Finally, there is no parking at these clubs. Our own club, in Cincinnati, overflows its parking when just the members and family show up on a sunny day. We do not publicize because there is no place for additional guests to park. However, there is some truth to the grumpy live steamer profile. There is no effort by these clubs to change their situation, with few exceptions. Waushakum in Norfolk, Mass. managed to buy their own land in a remarkable barter agreement and they have a long term plan for parking and public access. Their track site is beautiful, one of the best in the country. Our own club in Cincinnati faces new adjacent development and the initial response was to try and purchase more adjoining land. My feeling is exactly the opposite. We should sell the site to a homebuilder and buy a new piece of land in a cheaper location, and solve all of our problems at once. But I am only a marginal member and should not be giving orders. Here at home, I worked out a deal to build a new club and track site in Versailles, Kentucky at the Bluegrass Railroad Museum. The museum offered us free use of the land as part of a mutually beneficial exhibit. It was a perfect site. Reasonably flat, adjacent to a county park with a huge parking lot and facilities. The museum already had a station building with bathrooms, etc. I worked out all the details including obtaining a quote for commercial insurance for amusement rides. The quote was $1,000 a year with a $500 deductible. I expected the state would demand that we have a carnival ride permit at $100 per year, but I expected that if we negotiated politely they would not judge us harshly at inspection time. We would be free to charge a fare and I expected we could cover our expenses. The local live steamers balked. One member has a farm way out at the end of the road and power lines in rural Kentucky, and they have built a track facility there. It is the same story. It's fun, but it is remote, not accessible to the public, and it will all be gone when this member dies. Many live steamers enjoy the hobby as a way to escape from stress and be their own one-man railroad. The boiler incident I describe in other posts really motivated me to drop out of the preservation hobby and go back to live steam. I got tired of all the political and management issues. So, there are many reasons for the nature of these clubs. "Insurance" and liability are only a small component of them.

Author:	Dougvv [ Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Live steam article
I found the article interesting and fairly well balanced. One point in the article mentions the move to non-steam prototypes. I own a 4.75" gauge 2-6-2 that I ran a few times in the back yard. With no other 4.75" gauge tracks around and a boiler problem, the steamer has been sitting in my basement for 10 years untouched and disassembled. I purchased it used 20-odd years ago. I purchased a partially completed Cli-Shay that was chassis, stationary engine, and a boiler someone who retired from the hobby sold. I had it running a twice. Things like cylinder cocks had been omitted and rebuilding the engine so it would run was a royal pain. I do not enjoy machining but I love railroading. So I have built and completed two D&RGW narrow gauge box cars in 2.5" scale that run wonderfully. I am building a model of Galloping Goose #7. My profession is electrical engineering and I had fun turning the manual lathe into an NC machine with my own hardware and software. I have also found that designing the motor control circuit for the goose and my small 0-4-0 Plymouth switcher was fun. I plan to be able to MU them. If I am rich enough to hire a machinest to take care of maintaining a steamer, I love running them but do not have the patience to build them. In fact, I am considering taking the Cli-shay chassis (which runs well) and turning it into a box-cab diesel using an electric motor instead of a steam engine. AND OF COURSE, I've always wanted to try a steam electric locomotive. Use a steam engine (not locomotive) like a stationary engine on a chassis to turn a generator for electricity to run traction motors on the axles < GRIN >. Doug

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