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Steam era welded boilers
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Author:  Les Beckman [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Steam era welded boilers
The Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum in North Judson, Indiana has Chesapeake & Ohio 2-8-4 #2789 currently stored in our Shop building. The Kanawha was built by ALCO in 1947 and has a welded boiler. One of our members asked me to submit the following to RyPN:

"I am looking for any information on the fusion-welded boiler like on the 2789; drawings, construction information, designers and engineering personnel. Also looking to find out how many original as-built fusion-welded boilers from the steam era survive today and their locations and status. Thanks for any and all information."

Les Beckman (HVRM)
Author:  mxdata [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam era welded boilers
All I can say is "good luck" on finding any of ALCO's designers or engineering personnel from that time period still alive. I knew the gentleman who was their Chief Engineer in the mid-1940s and he passed away several decades ago. The experienced design engineers at the locomotive builders in the early postwar years were generally quite old, as very few younger people entered the civilian work force during the war, they were mostly in the military. You may have better luck seeking advice from current builders of boilers.

Unfortunately the preservation of the railroad equipment builders knowledge base is an area where the railroad historical community has repeatedly fallen flat on their faces. Nowadays the designers of the second generation diesels are passing away and other than an occasional posting of an obituary on an internet discussion group, nobody takes much notice.

I wonder if there was ever an instance where any of the "national" railroad historical societies invited any of the designers of modern US steam locomotives to be the speaker at any of their events? If it ever happened, it would probably have been in the 1970s or earlier. Anyone know of this EVER having happened?
Author:  Aarne H. Frobom [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam era welded boilers
I know there were 4 welded Kanawhas and only a handful of others. So far as I know the North Judson engine is the only survivor with a welded boiler. (Some of the firebox is riveted.)

This engine is stored without its jacket, and it's worth the trip to North Judson to see the big welds that this boiler has on its barrel instead of riveted seams.
Author:  Bobk [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam era welded boilers
Santa Fe 3768 in Kansas has a welded boiler.
Author:  Gavin Hamilton [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam era welded boilers
I think that the Bullied pacifics of the Southern Railway (England) had welded boilers........
Author:  jd johnson [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam era welded boilers
Les,

How will the FRA feel about this type boiler. Iwould think that if it passed the Ultra Sound on both the shell and the welds that it would be as safe or safer than the riveted boiler.

I have seen the new boiler for the Southern Railway 2-8-0 in Montecello Illinois and it is a beauty. I look forward to seeing it in operation soon.

Take Care,

JD Johnson, Morehead and North Fork Railroad Historian
Author:  Les Beckman [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam era welded boilers
JD -

Thanks. My contact at MRM tells me that the drivers have now been put back under Southern Consolidation #401 but there is still much to do. It is not expected to be ready for next years passenger season at Monticello, but they hope to have it finished by the end of 2007.

Adam -

Thanks for the note. AT&SF 4-8-4 #3768 was originally built by Baldwin in 1938. Is its welded boiler original, or was it rebuilt by the Santa Fe later and if so, do you know what year?

Les
Author:  Dave [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam era welded boilers
A modern full penetration welded seam done according to ASME practices and tested as required can achieve an efficiency of 100%. Do we know what standard, practice, and subsequent testing procedure was followed back then? Do we know what the seam efficiency was originally calculated to be given the welding done at the time? If so, it is possible that a testing procedure can be developed today to "qualify" the previous work to some recognizeable standard.

What an interesting situation.

dave
Author:  whodom [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam era welded boilers
Les Beckman wrote:
JD -
Adam -

Thanks for the note. AT&SF 4-8-4 #3768 was originally built by Baldwin in 1938. Is its welded boiler original, or was it rebuilt by the Santa Fe later and if so, do you know what year?

Les


Les,

I don't believe Baldwin ever produced any all-welded boilers. I remember reading that Sante Fe acquired all-welded boilers from Combustion Engineering in the late 40's and was installing a substantial number of them just prior to the end of steam.

ALCO was the first to provide welded boilers in the U.S., IIRC because they were the only company with a furnace large enough to anneal the entire boiler after welding. This was required on welded locomotive boilers at that time, but as experience with the relatively new technology grew, at some point the requirement was dropped.

Dave raises some good questions. I'm wondering if the annealing process that ALCO used would still be considered beneficial, even if it's unnecessary under today's code.
Author:  Doug Debs 2472 [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Welded boilers in Germany
Germany had many welded boilers. Prewar dual-service class 41 2-8-2s had welded seams.

The former Deutsche Reichsbahn repair shops in Meiningen, Germany, http://www.dampflokwerk.de/english/index.htm (in English)
which serve as the heavy overhaul shops for preserved steam locomotives from many European countries, has just delivered an all-welded boiler for the new replica British LNER "Peppercorn" class A1 3-cylinder 4-6-2 http://www.a1steam.com/mainmenu.html
http://www.a1steam.com/construction%20-%20boiler.html

- Doug Debs
Author:  John E. Rimmasch [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam era welded boilers
Our company, Wasatch Railroad Contractors has done extensive study on welded boilers from the days of steam. To answer a few of the questions posted thus far; It is true that most if not all of the designers of these boilers have passed away or are in such ill health that it is tough to converse with them. Likewise, written records of their work are becoming harder to find.

It is a fact that most of the welded boilers that survive today were constructed to the 1952 ASME code of new construction for pressure vessels. This code is easy to come by and our company maintains a copy of it. Even today, modern code has some variation from the 1952 version, but the current ASME standard for welded construction of a boiler is…..for the most part….boiler plate.

Yes, the FRA accepts welded boilers as they meet or exceed the safety standards imposed by a number of regulatory agencies. To say a welded boiler is weaker than a riveted boiler is not true. The biggest problem you have with some early code welded boilers is the material that was used to make the boiler. The 3700 class mentioned below is one of those cases.

Now, the heart of the question: Are you looking for actual drawings and information, or real people that still live that built these things? Our Company has the written information, but I am sorry, we have been unsuccessful in retaining any of the old guys…..this death thing has been difficult for us to over come.

In January of 2007 our company will unveil a new function on our web page. We have created a technical question department where-in you can ask us for specific drawings or information and we will provide the information to you. For now, the service will be offered free of charge. However for some larger pieces there may be a handling fee. If you would like to give us a try, please e-mail us. As for the welded boiler information……as I stated, we maintain a creditable file on this topic. If you can specify what it is you are seeking, we will provide it. It is what we do to provide a helping hand.

Respectfully,

John E. Rimmasch

www.wasatch-rr-contractors.com
Author:  Dave [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam era welded boilers
Hugh, the old ALCO boilers have lived through so many thermal cycles that whether they had been initially annealed or not probably is no longer material today.

Interesting John - if the problem is materials specs, that is easily discovered through analysis. If the analysis determines appropriate quality steel was used, do you then have the documentation in hand to certify the boiler?

Thanks for the tech questions feature. Just another example of where Wasatch is a bit ahead of the game in the USA. Have you considered a psychic connection to communicate with the dead engineers?

"He's not yet dead;
he's not yet dead.
Don't put him on the cart
because he's not yet dead."

dave
Author:  mxdata [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam era welded boilers
Yes, nice work on the technical questions feature John.

Many folks in the historical and preservation communities have not been keeping very close track of time. A while ago I read an internet posting about a diesel restoration project, somebody commented that what it really needed was a person who used to work for the Winton Engine Company to push it along.

Push it along? Or be pushed along in a wheelchair? Somebody who was 30 when the Winton Engine Company changed to Cleveland Diesel would be just about 100 years old right now.
Author:  Kelly Anderson [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  .
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Author:  Bobk [ Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Steam era welded boilers
Thanks for the note. AT&SF 4-8-4 #3768 was originally built by Baldwin in 1938. Is its welded boiler original, or was it rebuilt by the Santa Fe later and if so, do you know what year?


I don't believe Baldwin ever produced any all-welded boilers. I remember reading that Sante Fe acquired all-welded boilers from Combustion Engineering in the late 40's and was installing a substantial number of them just prior to the end of steam.

ALCO was the first to provide welded boilers in the U.S., IIRC because they were the only company with a furnace large enough to anneal the entire boiler after welding. This was required on welded locomotive boilers at that time, but as experience with the relatively new technology grew, at some point the requirement was dropped.

Dave raises some good questions. I'm wondering if the annealing process that ALCO used would still be considered beneficial, even if it's unnecessary under today's code.[/quote]

I understand that the Santa Fe boilers used on the 3765 class were nickle steel and were prone to cracking. They were not built by Santa Fe however I do not know who the builder was.
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