Railway Preservation News :: View topic - Visitor Safety

A clear plexiglass panel attached to the bottom rungs of any vertical access is a pretty effective deterrent to climbers, but unfortunately it will haze with age and weather exposure and become more noticable.

...We had a situation earlier this month where two children were spotted on a ladder about to go playing on top of a boxcar. When our volunteer ordered them down, their father, standing nearby and happily watching them climbing into serious danger, gave the volunteer an argument about the situation, and all but refused to have his sons come down. One wonders what sort of parenting skills would let someone allow their children to get into such a potentially dangerous situation, but this was not the first time this has happened...

We had a situation earlier this month where two children were spotted on a ladder about to go playing on top of a boxcar. When our volunteer ordered them down, their father, standing nearby and happily watching them climbing into serious danger, gave the volunteer an argument about the situation, and all but refused to have his sons come down. One wonders what sort of parenting skills would let someone allow their children to get into such a potentially dangerous situation, but this was not the first time this has happened.

It is my position that adding something, especially something that is ultimately demountable, to a historic piece is preferable to removing parts of the artifact. The added panels can be unobtrusive, and the modification is always reversible.

I keep seeing the word Plexiglass go by. Let me repeat this again, DO NOT USE PLEXIGLASS TO PLATE OVER LADDERS. I think that twelve years of projectile proofing windows, signs, and windbreaks on the Chicago elevated system gives me sufficient insight to make this statement.

If you attach something over a handhold to prevent someone from using it, and they use it anyway and the item you've attached breaks away, their attorney is going to claim that your action specifically caused their injury. The argument will become that the handhold was perfectly safe, but the material you attached was not.

Author:	BobCrowley [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:02 am ]
Post subject:	Visitor Safety - Ladders and Grabirons
There are probably lots of ways to handle this issue, and while we have some ideas already, we are curious to see how other museum operators view the problem. Besides, we might all benefit by sharing our experiences here. Three issues come together to present a hazard we all have to handle. First, railroad cars and locomotives, especially the vintage-type equipment we all operate, have ladders and grabirons all over. Second, people, especially kid-people, like to climb and grab such things, often placing themselves in potentially dangerous situations. Third, removing the ladders and grabirons destroys the historic preservation aspect of the equipment, and is therefore not an option. Our problem here is how to reconcile these three issues together. We have a number of possible options, each having its own set of problems, costs, and difficulties. Those we see as the most obvious are: Fencing - It is possible to build enough fences to separate the public from every last piece of equipment, but that detracts from the overall scene, and is not always practical or economical. Common carrier railroads do not do it in all cases. Signage - The usual signs stating "climbing on equipment is prohibited" can be posted everywhere, but there is no guarantee anyone will read it, and as one of our volunteers actually suggested, putting up a twenty foot square sign in huge letters stating anyone caught climbing will be ejected is really not practical. We are contemplating small signs hung on every ladder and grabiron in sight, but again, this is visually objectionable in the context of historic preservation. Patrols - Some volunteers could be tasked with walking about the facility to spot climbers, and disabuse them of the practice, but those volunteers cannot be everywhere, may not be around on days when the facility is closed, and are not always available on operating days. Removal - As stated above, one could remove all the ladders and grabirons, but this is hardly a practical solution in the context of historic preservation, and not one we want to contemplate unless the situation grows to a larger problem. We had a situation earlier this month where two children were spotted on a ladder about to go playing on top of a boxcar. When our volunteer ordered them down, their father, standing nearby and happily watching them climbing into serious danger, gave the volunteer an argument about the situation, and all but refused to have his sons come down. One wonders what sort of parenting skills would let someone allow their children to get into such a potentially dangerous situation, but this was not the first time this has happened. How do each of you handle this at your own facilities? I have been to many other museums and tourist lines, and from what I have seen, the situation must be chronic to all of us.

Author:	mxdata [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Visitor Safety - Ladders and Grabirons
A clear plexiglass panel attached to the bottom rungs of any vertical access is a pretty effective deterrent to climbers, but unfortunately it will haze with age and weather exposure and become more noticable.

Author:	johnacraft [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Visitor Safety - Ladders and Grabirons
mxdata wrote: A clear plexiglass panel attached to the bottom rungs of any vertical access is a pretty effective deterrent to climbers, but unfortunately it will haze with age and weather exposure and become more noticable. I agree - a panel over the rungs can be the most unobtrusive solution. Plexiglass is relatively inexpensive at Big Orange or Big Blue, and when it hazes you can either replace it or paint it the color of the equipment. JAC

Author:	Dennis Storzek [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Visitor Safety - Ladders and Grabirons
BobCrowley wrote: ...We had a situation earlier this month where two children were spotted on a ladder about to go playing on top of a boxcar. When our volunteer ordered them down, their father, standing nearby and happily watching them climbing into serious danger, gave the volunteer an argument about the situation, and all but refused to have his sons come down. One wonders what sort of parenting skills would let someone allow their children to get into such a potentially dangerous situation, but this was not the first time this has happened... Simple. Issue the volunteers cans of Ortho Wasp & Hornet Killer. Works on kids as well as wasps. One squirt brings the kids right down. Oh, I suppose you want a less drastic solution. DO NOT CLIMB ON EQUIPMENT signs are probably a necessity to defend yourself when someone gets hurt, but there should be no need to actually affix them to the equipment, since they are universally ignored, anyway. A large, noticeable one at the public entrance, with reminders scattered along the pathways should serve the purpose. The least intrusive way I know of to keep people from climbing to the roofs of freight cars, with their many inviting ladders, is to plate over the ladders. If a metal plate is attached over the top three rungs of the ladder, it is normally enough of a discouragement to anyone without technical climbing gear that they stop climbing when they reach it. This leaves the lower steps and handholds still available for the use of the crews if and when the equipment is operated. Painted to match the color of the car they’re on, these don’t detract from the display too much. On those special pieces, the plates can be clear ¼” Lexan, so the details of the car show through. Lexan (polycarbonate) is expensive, but Plexiglass (acrylic) breaks too easily, producing sharp edges. Make sure whatever you use is securely attached, so you don’t contribute to the injury when someone grabs onto the plate and it comes off. Heavy gauge stainless steel te wire works well.

Author:	Dave [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Visitor Safety - Ladders and Grabirons
BobCrowley wrote: We had a situation earlier this month where two children were spotted on a ladder about to go playing on top of a boxcar. When our volunteer ordered them down, their father, standing nearby and happily watching them climbing into serious danger, gave the volunteer an argument about the situation, and all but refused to have his sons come down. One wonders what sort of parenting skills would let someone allow their children to get into such a potentially dangerous situation, but this was not the first time this has happened. Did you send Gene over to have a talk with him? I wouldn't hesitate to call the sheriff and have the family removed by force if necessary, if they are deliberately flaunting posted rules. dave

Railway Preservation News https://www.rypn.org/forums/

Visitor Safety - Ladders and Grabirons https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21852	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Dale Grice [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Visitor Safety - Ladders and Grabirons
We have a sign at the entrance and any volunteer is authorized to ask and then order people off any grabs or ladders. We will escalate with a call to the police if neccesary. I do not know of any instances where we had go beyond asking. Our property is fenced, so our issue is only on open days. I did find a father and two sons inspecting a NS train stopped in the siding at the grade crossing to our our site. From 75 feet sway I asked them to get back behind the gate. I knew a Southbound was approaching on teh main where the kids were cavorting about. I finally walked ever as the Southbound was coming aroung the bend 1/2 mile away and yelled to get back, which they finally did. I explained to numnutz dad that I din't think he wanted to see his boys dead that day and to place himself in the cab of a train bearing down on two young boys. I also mentioned to him that he and his kids were technically trespassing being on the rr side of a lowered gate. Doubt that anything I said had much effect. I was ready to use dad as a crosstie since he wasn't up to parenting. Dale Grice

Author:	giterdun [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Visitor Safety - Ladders and Grabirons
I think someone posted here a while ago that they posted "Beware-Area Wasp Infested. Stay clear until application of fumigant" signs on cars and it helped immensely. Gotta love a creative solution.

Author:	BobCrowley [ Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Visitor Safety - Ladders and Grabirons
I rather fancy the bug spray idea, but there are probably some insurance liability issues with that. grin The plexiglass covering for the ladders and grabirons is quite a good idea, although I see two drawbacks. First, it does interfere with the concept of historic preservation somewhat since, not being original equipment, it does not allow the exhibit to be presented as originally built, but that may be a small price to pay for safety. Second, we do have occasion for our own crews to use those ladders and grabirons, so we will have to think that through. In the past, we have used small, license plate sized, signs asking people to refrain from climbing. These are attached to the ladders and grabirons with cable ties, making them removable if necessary. They are also small enough to allow our crews to use the ladders and grabirons safely without removing them. These seem to work sometimes, although I have seen people climb right over them. I would appreciate hearing any other ideas and/or solutions anyone may have. Thanks for the input!

Author:	Dennis Storzek [ Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Visitor Safety - Ladders and Grabirons
Bob, It is my position that adding something, especially something that is ultimately demountable, to a historic piece is preferable to removing parts of the artifact. The added panels can be unobtrusive, and the modification is always reversible. Indeed, the panels could even be temporarily removed if the occasion warrants. Serious historians doing research can see what is original; not the case if grab irons or ladder rungs are removed. I would not advocate plating items that the crews would normally use, such as sill steps and the lower ladder rungs. Not only would this be a hazard to the crew, but kids will still try to climb on these things, and the fact that they are still there, but now less accessible, may actually increase your exposure to liability if someone is injured. However, few operations do, or should, need their crews to have access to car roofs, so the upper ladder rungs are certainly good candidates for plating over. I keep seeing the word Plexiglass go by. Let me repeat this again, DO NOT USE PLEXIGLASS TO PLATE OVER LADDERS. I think that twelve years of projectile proofing windows, signs, and windbreaks on the Chicago elevated system gives me sufficient insight to make this statement. If you attach something over a handhold to prevent someone from using it, and they use it anyway and the item you've attached breaks away, their attorney is going to claim that your action specifically caused their injury.The argument will become that the handhold was perfectly safe, but the materil you attached was not. Plexiglass is cheap, but it is no good for applications where it is not surrounded by a frame. Plexiglass (and all other cast acrylic sheet) is very brittle, and cracks easily, especially when it is cold. Just drilling holes in plexiglass usually causes a star of cracks to form at the hole, and these will run to the edge of the sheet when stress is applied, turning the sheet into sharp shards. What you want to be using is Lexan (polycarbonate) sheet. This is somewhat more expensive, but not that much, compared to the cost of a visitor injury. You should be able to plate over the top three rungs of the four ladders on a boxcar with a sheet of material 48" X 48" (four pieces 16" X 32"). Looking in the McMaster Carr catalog (not the best price, by far) 3/16" cast acrylic sheet would cost $72.14; 3/16" polycarbonate would cost $79.86. For the 10% difference, the polycarbonate is well worth the price. There are cheaper alternatives. On equipment without much detail behind the ladders, painted sheet metal, or even plywood, is just as effective, but more work due to having to match the paint color.

Author:	BobCrowley [ Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Visitor Safety - Ladders and Grabirons
Dennis Storzek wrote: It is my position that adding something, especially something that is ultimately demountable, to a historic piece is preferable to removing parts of the artifact. The added panels can be unobtrusive, and the modification is always reversible. I quite agree, Dennis. Removing parts for any reason is one thing we want to avoid. Doing that destroys the historic preservation aspect of what we are all about. If anything, adding panels over the ladders and grabirons seems to be the most unobtrusive solution. Dennis Storzek wrote: I keep seeing the word Plexiglass go by. Let me repeat this again, DO NOT USE PLEXIGLASS TO PLATE OVER LADDERS. I think that twelve years of projectile proofing windows, signs, and windbreaks on the Chicago elevated system gives me sufficient insight to make this statement. I do agree here as well, and understand Lexan, or some other polycarbonate sheet, is the prefered material when doing anything tranparent. I think part of the issue here is the word "pleiglass" has entered the Ameical lexicon as a non-specific noun meaing all sorts of non-glass hard clear material. True plexiglass has its uses, but this is not one of them. Dennis Storzek wrote: If you attach something over a handhold to prevent someone from using it, and they use it anyway and the item you've attached breaks away, their attorney is going to claim that your action specifically caused their injury. The argument will become that the handhold was perfectly safe, but the material you attached was not. We could go on about our letigious society here for quite a while, but your point is very well taken. "If ice collects on the sidewalk outside your home, and you do nothing, and someone falls, it is an act of god, but if you attempt to clear the ice and someone falls, you created the hazard." Also, by the way, coffee may be hot, so do not spill it in your lap. sigh It was a lot easier when most people took responsibility for their own actions, but we digress. Interestingly enough, we saw a potential solution last evening when driving by a McDonald's in the neighborhood. (Ironic, considering the "hot coffee" reference above.) We noticed a ladder, used to access the roof, leading up the side of the building. A steel frame filled with a heavy gauge wire mesh was hinged to one side of the ladder like a sort of "door," and secured to the other side of the ladder with a hasp and padlock. Some talk with our mechanical folks suggest such a thing could be secured with U-bolts, making it fully removable, and able to cover as much of the ladder as we wished. A bit of paint to make it the same color as the equipment could blend it in enough to satisfy all but the most picky (or scholarly) among us. A few facts come through all of this discussion so far, and they are important points for ever one of us. 1. This is a chronic problem, not limited to only a few facilities. 2. There is no single solution for all cases. 3. Good signage is probably the most important part of any solution. 4. We cannot protect people from themselves. 5. Although about 1% of visitors always will be foolhardy enough to climb, most have a bit more sense. This is a problem without end for any of us, and the best we can do is mitigate the danger to the best of our ability. I appreciate the input and suggestions everyone has made here, and hope this discussion will continue. There are probably quite a few other ideas and suggestions out there we have not heard yet.

Page 1 of 1	All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/