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Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
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Author:  johnny winkler [ Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
Just saw a report on FOX News about the potential threat of an electromagnetic pulse bomb.If detonated high in the atmosphere over the central U.S. power grids across the nation would be disabled for months to possibly years.One person spoke of the need to have technology that by-passes dependence on electronic systems, he said" for example if your power windows won't open you will need a crank to open them".I did some breif looking at EMP on the web and saw that in the aftermath of an attack automobiles would not run because fuel to the engines is dependent on electronics.What if this was done not once but repeatedly by an enemy to paralyze America? Should someone be looking at a worse case scenerio plan to keep our railroads running without any electronics?A federal program to restore mainline steam locomotives to running condition and a core of people to train railroad crews in their operation? So how about it, could the federal government be persuaded to restore your local park display locomotive to running condition in the name of national security?There have been worse cases of taxpayer money spent.
Author:  fkrock [ Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
Consider the source, Fox News, never noted for journalistic excellence.

It's a slow news day. A reporter comes up with a story idea and then goes hunting for the most outrageous quotes he can find. He doesn't bother to check whether this "expert" is qualified to talk on the subject or not. All he wants is a sensational quote.

It's like looking for information on the Internet. You can find a lot a cranks and nut cases there with all kinds of crazy ideas. The reporter finds one and puts him on the air.

In reality most diesel locomotives probably would survive an EMP just fine.
Author:  Ed Fritz [ Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
johnny winkler wrote:
Just saw a report on FOX News about the potential threat of an electromagnetic pulse bomb.If detonated high in the atmosphere over the central U.S. power grids across the nation would be disabled for months to possibly years.


Currently, the only "EMP" bomb is a thermo-nuclear device detonated above 50 miles. Energy that normally goes into creating the shock wave is transferred to the electromagnetic pulse.

I don't think there be that much to transport if someone started setting off large thermo-nuclear devices above the U.S. metropolitan areas. Not to mention that under most ROE, that act authorizes the declaring unrestricted thermo-nuclear war.
Author:  Ron Goldfeder [ Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
I remember a science fiction story using this plot line from many years ago. In that one steam locomotives from Canada came to our rescue. Sounds like the reporter found this story somehow.
Author:  cjvrr [ Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
I don't think an EMP weapon (alone) exists yet that is large enough to do the kind of damage.

Having a contingency of steam locomotives won't matter if you can't get drinking water to your home (electric pump), power to your home (electric fridge, etc.) and a whole lot of other more important immediate needs if something like this were to happen.

And I am no EMP expert but since any modern diesel - electric locomotive has a computer system and traction motors are electric, I am guessing they ain't gonna work either.

Chris, no chicken little
Author:  G. W. Laepple [ Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
Since we've sent much of our manufacturing capability overseas to our potential enemies, we aren't going to need railroads to transport manufactured goods. They certainly aren't going to be shipping VCR's, i-pods and sneakers to us, since there will be no chance we'll be able to for any of it.

The USA can no longer call itself "the arsenal of democracy" as it did during World War II. If some national decides to have a war against us, getting steam locomotives out and into service again is going to be the least of our worries, as was noted above. We'll be too busy trying to survive without the Internet, air-conditioning, fast food and SUV's.

If this scenario were come to pass, we can all kiss our current way of life goodbye!
Author:  Kelly Anderson [ Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:43 pm ]
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Author:  johnacraft [ Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
Kelly Anderson wrote:
Sure they do. Why, I just saw George Clooney steal one in the movie "Ocean's Eleven". They used it to black out Las Vegas. What more proof do you need? No need to worry though, they had the power back on in a matter of minutes.

Perhaps that is where FOX News got it's lead. Research, always research...


Yep. It was on TV Christmas Eve.

(Get out of my head, Kelly. Oh, and do you moisturize? I don't really get into the traditional remedies . . . )

JAC
Author:  survivingworldsteam [ Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
cjvrr wrote:
Having a contingency of steam locomotives won't matter if you can't get drinking water to your home (electric pump), power to your home (electric fridge, etc.) and a whole lot of other more important immediate needs if something like this were to happen.


Not to mention you will need a network of watering, refueling, and maintenance stations to take care of your fleet of steam locomotives; all of course not dependant on the electrical grid. Not to mention crews and craftsmen trained to operate and maintain them

It was for similiar reasons that the Soviet Union, Sweden, South Africa, and probably others stored large numbers of steam locomotives in "strategic reserves". Some of these reserves are still around today; and the opposite has happened - they became a great source of locomotives for park displays, museums, and tourist railroads...

I do like the idea. Lets also pull what Liberty steamships remain in the "ghost fleets" out and put them back in service, and restore to operation and build more steam powered pumping stations.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project
Author:  JR May [ Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
Yes, the high altitude EMP was a threat during the peak of the cold war and yes it would render many modern automobiles useless as well as the overall power grid and anything else that had an abundant amount of copper wire. There was a very good book based on this subject written back in the 1980s, WarDay I think it was called. In the book, the UK set up a new government and California was taken back by Mexico were a couple of highlights off hand. The threat today is simply the dirty bomb, delivered by a U-Haul rather than an ICBM.

Anyway, that aside, the bigger strategic threat that could potentially be used to support restoration of a steam fleet is the oil supply situation. If there were a major melt down in the middle east, we (the USA) would be screwed for sure. Keep in mind though that we are not looking at a situation of zero oil, but certainly a drastic cut in availability.

To help offset the shortage, steam locomotives could be used in place of diesel locomotives and electric locomotives (whose electricity tends to come from oil and gas burning plants). To take it the next step, what about the many steam pumping stations that sit idle or being scrapped. Or steam ships for that matter.

My primary question would be whether or not there are enough steam locomotives left in the USA to make a dent in oil consumption.

Certainly is an interesting idea. With the strategic oil reserve in place, we would not be looking at an over night cut back of oil, but long term there could certainly be a need to resort to coal.

J.R. May
Author:  Howard P. [ Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
Um, guys, the locomotives are not the problem, the ability to restore them is. Let's see..... how many shops are there in the US and how many competent mechanics are there that could restore steam locomotives in anything approaching the time and quantity needed??? Not to mention availabilty of machine tools, steel, non-ferrous castings, tubes, etc.

Nice dream, but about as likely as having Ford start turning out Model As right after the EMP wipes out all the computerized autos.

In the scenario mentioned above, the more important question is: What kind of gun(s) do you have and do you have enough ammo for it?
Author:  doowoppie [ Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
Er........
LOCOMOTIVES 11 Starring Johnny Travolta and Niki Cage. Costarring Sly Stallone and Sigurney Weaver.

:-)

Andy
Author:  Txhighballer [ Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
An interesting exercise but not likely to occur. Since you would lose essentially all communication,how would you get the word out? Well there is only one way known to establish communications after an EMP...the telegraph....
Author:  Kelly Anderson [ Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:08 am ]
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Author:  brianf [ Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electromagnetic pulse attack and Steam Locomotives
LOL! I remember reading about the EMP threat back in the 80's (Reagan era) when all things cold war and the Soviet threat were the fashion. As a general rule, the most vulnerable electronics will be your low voltage solid state stuff. PCs, home appliances, clocks etc.

Power electronics and tube equipment is less vulnerable, and even immune in some situations. The first generation diesels with their relay controls would be unaffected. The voltages and currents handled by the control electronics in current generation diesels would probably handle an EM pulse fine too.

The national power grid (and railroad signal and communication) systems already have to deal with the EM generated by solar storms and flares. A lot of equipment that is designed to work in electrically noisy environments incorporates fast clamping diodes and/or MOVs for protection from voltage spikes.

Last of all, I'm not sure there are enough preserved steam locomotives of an economically usefull size/capacity to make the effort worthwhile even if all the other infrastructure issues could be solved.
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