Traveling around to different museums, it seems that the use of vinyl lettering and numerals on steel cars is quite widespread. Even striping and outlining in a contrasting color can be done nicely in vinyl, and in some cases you have to take your fingernail and attempt to discern an edge before you can convince yourself that it's a vinyl letter instead of painted on.

The vinyl letters do tend to look more "perfect" than hand painted, and so some would argue that they are thus not correct, but I'm still amazed at what people are doing with them!

We're getting ready to do another set of vinyl letters at OERM, and we've yet to find a vendor that we want to stick with. Thus I thought I might be able to get some feedback from the Interchange on a few topics relating to longevity, etc:

1) thickness of vinyl?
2) type of material?
3) any application tricks to pass along?

Thanks!

http://www.oerm.org

I used them several years ago to letter trucks in my company. The largest I could find at the art stores was 6". But now I see sign shops that can cut them in any size and font.

When I put them on the trucks, I started by cleaning off all of the wax with denatured alcohol. Then following the manufacturers instructions, I mixed in dish washing liquid into a bucket of water then put the letters in with the paper back removed. You position the letter and the soapy water allows you to move them around. When you get it where you want it, you just squeegy the water out and the letter sticks.

Good luck!

Later!
Mr. Ed

I don't know how much choice you'll have in thickness - in my very limited experience, a roll of vinyl is a roll of vinyl. I don't see any reason that thickness would have a big affect the longevity of lettering.

As to type, vinyl is available in quite a range of colors, but you may have to pay for the entire roll if you insist on a rare color. An alternative is to have your color "printed" onto white vinyl. Something tells me that wouldn't hold up long to sunlight.

I always create my lettering for direct output - either using packages from www.railfonts.com, or drawing them "by hand" in PhotoShop. If you're using a "standard" font from RailFonts, it may be easier to hand your vendor the font file and let them do the work - otherwise, put your lettering on CD or thumb drive in EPS (encapsulated PostScript), which is a "vector" format (unlike "raster" formats like JPEG).

All the vinyl lettering I've ever used is cut on a plotter, then put onto backing paper - just peel off the "back" paper, and rub it on. If you're going for a long-term job, seal it with a couple of coats of varnish to keep it from peeling.

JAC

There is a product available called "Right-On" that takes the place of the soapy water as a positioning agent. I have found that using it as per the directions cuts the application time in half. I purchase it a my automotive paint provider.

As info both E-8's, Warrior Ridge, Little Juniata Rapids, and all our frieght units have vinyl lettering. On the freight units that are in the weather every day and exposed to caustic washes I find that the product exceeds the manufactures claim of a seven year life. We do not protect the lettering with a clear overcoat.

E.B. Levin

Hard to say what they cost and what they are worth. But we also have used them for logos, and other artwork that are clearly too intricate to hand paint. Essentially replacing water slide decals.

In our case we are able to enlist the help of one of our state run universities. Most of them have so many signs and vehicles, that a sign shop is set up on campus. Basically, if we use material in stock it is as little as 2 bucks per foot. And as mentioned earlier, a special stock can be purchased for rare colors or metallics. Still not that expensive.

For outlined letters and numerals there are two choices, printing of the outline color (usually black) or the application of a thin overlay or foil to create that effect.

Bob Kutella

We applied vinyl letters to our coaches on the SD&A in 1986. We got about ten years out of them before the Southern California sun burnt them off. This was done over top of the line Imron Paint. After 20 years the paint still look fair but we will repaint soon. At the same time that the vinyl lettering was applied a vintage heavyweight car was hand lettered with "One Shot" sign painters enamel. This lettering still looks good after 20 years.

What we are doing now is a better way, we believe, to letter cars. We use a vinyl "friskit" pattern where a negative vinyl pattern is stuck to the cars and a small roller is used to apply the lettering enamel. When dry to the touch we peel off the vinyl and leave crisp snappy looking painted on letters that should last more than 20 years like our hand painted stuff does.

The negative Friskit pattern is done by a local sign shop to our specifications. A computer driven machine cuts the friskit to any font and size up to about 18 inches high. Most of our stuff is "Railroad Roman" or SP standard fonts from the steam and early diesel era that is native to our railroad.

Thanks for adding some first hand experience to this discussion. It sounds about the same as what I’ve observed on the Soo Line passenger cars displayed out doors in Ladysmith. WI. The train (the shell of an FP-7 and three heavyweight passenger cars) was painted about fifteen or twenty years ago, and lettered with vinyl. The paint has lost its gloss, but is otherwise serviceable, but the letters are peeling badly around the edges, and have been for at least the past five years. Therein lies the problem. If the lettering would have been painted on, it would look like the original lettering on equipment that’s ready for repainting. But, because the lettering is something non-original, it looks like a poorly maintained museum display instead. If the manufacturer of the vinyl guarantees it for seven years, it likely has a service life double that; fine for fleet trucks, which typically go from the showroom floor to the scrap yard in less time than that. For our displayed railroad equipment, however, fourteen years feels like you just got it finished.

I happen to like painting the lettering through a friskit mask, rather than under painting with the lettering color; if the painted letters start to peel or get scraped, they can be touched up, but if the lettering color starts to show through around the lettering, it looks like hell.

In addition, as nice a paint as One-Shot is, painting through a mask allows one to do the lettering in a more durable high gloss paint, the equivalent of what is on the body… even Imron, if you want. Then there is no reason that the lettering shouldn’t last as long as the paint finish on the rest of the car.

I have used paint and vinyl and settled on vinyl lettering as the best option for our situation. As I understand it, the vinyl currently used by sign shops is a bit heavier (thicker) than vinyl used 10 or 15 years ago. In any case, the edge roll is less likely if the vinyl is thicker. However, since I was very concerned about having the lettering roll up in 5 - 10 years, I decided to over coat the lettering (and the entire car) with clear coat. This required close scheduling and coordination between the painting crew and the sign shop we used for the lettering.

In a couple of instances, delays required scuffing the entire surface of the fresh paint to give the lettering adheasive and clear coat something to bite into. Surface prep is important, as always, and so far the lettering and paint are holding up well. The only problem I have found is where some lettering overlays a weld seam on the side of a boxcar. The vinyl was slit to get it to lay down better, and now a gap has opened up. I think a little paint to fill the gap and a shot of compatable clear coat will take care of that.

For application, the lettering is positioned, still attached to the front mask and backing. Once position was set, the backing was removed by carefully peeling from one end of the lettering strip to the other, pressing the letters in place as the backing was removed. Once the lettering is adheared, the top masking is peeled off and the letters rolled to make sure edges are firmly attached. Bubbles were pin-pricked and re-rolled. Once the clear coat is sprayed on, the edges almost disappear.

Over the last 5 years, we've done 2 boxcars and a locomotive tender with vinyl lettering, and a baggage car and caboose using vinyl stencils and painting the letters on the car. In all cases, the finish has been clear-coated for added protection of the paint and lettering. The first piece painted, the caboose, was done using a lower grade industrial paint, stencil-lettered in yellow over the red body color, then clear coated. The surface prep prior to the clear coat was inadequately done, and the clear coat thinly applied. As a consequence, the clear coat is releasing and the paint color fading. Time will tell, but with exception of the caboose, I'm happy with what we have so far.

Well said Dennis. We have also used Imron as the lettering color on locomotives. After the primer coat a lettering or "tiger" stripe color is applied to the areas required. Then the the friskit "possitive" letters are applied along with any stiping masking as soon as the Imron is completey cured. Then the color coat for the entire loco applied. When this is cured we peel off the friskit letters and get perfect crisp edges.

The best thing about the friskit plastic material is that it is not as sticky as regular vinyl lettering so it peels off easy if used as a positive or negative pattern. The best lettering for an Imron paint job is...Imron. We have also got good long term results with "One Shot" lettering enamel on Imron but it does fade quicker.

My experience with vinyl letters has been all bad but then, it's been twenty years since I did any of it and technology has changed. As an all volunteer crew, painting an 80 foot heavyweight car is tough for us and very time consuming. We want to put the best coating on each artifact that we can possibly afford. So far that's been Imron or another competitor "Ameron" applied with airless equipment. The lettering is the frosting on the cake so our best efort is required there too.

I have been lettering railroad equipment for 30 years and I am still learning and looking for better ways to do it. I'll need more than a manufacturers seven year guarantee to try vinyl again on a railcar as our sun soaked climate is hard on our stuff. (106 F. as a high for most of Sept.) Modern Vinyl has been tried on some of our interpretive signage recently and will be watched closely.

I don't post much here but am always watching for good ideas that others have had success with. This thread has been really interesting.

What is commonly used here at NIU in the graphics department is a 2mil
vinyl film made by 3M for Gerber. Called Gerber HP Series 220 I have
also heard it called Scotchcal. Linked below.

http://www.gspinc.com/products/material ... index.html

It should last at least 8 years outdoors as long as it is on the side
of a stable clean smooth surface like a freshly painted car. It is very
thin and conforms well to surface irregularities. Although I try to
remove little "sand grain" bumps before applying.
After cutting, it normally is backed with 12" wide masking after being
culled of background.
You mark where it goes then "float it on" with a solution of window
cleaner and distilled water. Rub, let dry, then rub again before pulling
the masking tape off.
We also use a reflective vinyl like that used by UP called series 680
reflective.
I also use some older thicker less sticky matt vinyl for masking called
g/cal also from Gerber.

A recent project I did was the lettering for our CNW 411 locomotive.
http://www.irm.org/gallery/cnw411paintproj
We had a newer herald I traced then inserted some changes to match the
era.
All other artwork was generated from high quality historic photos of
411 and her sisters.
I had a black and red film(foil) applied over reflective white for the
heralds.
Made up low stick masks (negative image) for the number boards to be
sprayed with black paint.
And provided full scale printed numbers for the paint shop to use as
stencils for masking made up during painting.
All of this was provided to our art department digitally from a program
called Adobe Illustrator. It allows you to scale graphics like Cad but
also allows layering in photos and scans to work from. Much easier than
Cad to work with. And its what they need to cut from.

I have found some fonts that work, I also have received some from H.O.
modelers via the history groups on the web. Believe it or not the side
script and reporting numbers on 9255 was scaled up from HO to 12" = 1'
using Illustrator.

http://www.irm.org/gallery/9255painting/aci

But most times it needs to be traced letter by letter. Properly sized
and cleaned up for the cutter. Takes me about 15 min. to a half hour per
letter. If you do not have a full scale tracing to scan in, you will
very much need a sharp 8x10 photo to work from.
Hope this helps, feel free to post this if you think someone else will
find it useful.

Buzz,

You might check out Ben Coifman’s font library at: http://www.railfonts.com

These are fully scalable fonts available in either PC or Mac versions, in a lot of useful typefaces.

In case anyone is wondering what the issue is here, traditional railroad lettering is not the same as traditional printer’s type, which is where most computer fonts have evolved from. The size, proportioning, and stroke weight that works on the printed page doesn’t work well on the side of a passenger car, and vice versa. If one just used say, Times New Roman to letter a car, the results will look odd indeed.

There are those in the modeling community who make the claim that Mr. Coiffman’s lettering is “not correct”, and it is most likely true; applying automatic kerning to the font so it can be used to type printed pages makes the letters space out differently than is often found on the cars themselves. However, all we are really concerned with is the actual letters themselves. We have other ways to determine the proper positioning.

One thing that we’ve found useful at Accurail when developing art from scanned photos (or tracings, for that matter) is to lay a letter from a similar font on a different drawing layer directly over the scanned image, convert the letter to outlines for a comparison of shapes, and then convert the letter to graphics and edit it if needed. This supplies lines and smooth curves where they are needed, ready for tweaking. Areas that are indeterminable from the photo can just use the shape the font already provides with the assurance that it is the best possible solution, a real help when working from a photo of a heavily weathered car. The edited letters can then either be sent to the cutter as graphics, or re-compiled as a new font for future use.

Railfonts aren’t free; Mr. Coifiman charges about ten bucks apiece for them, but they are well worth it for the amount of time they save.

I think I talked about this before in a different thread...

Big Boy No. 4023 was lettered the same way. In fact, the manufacturers of graphics vinyl make a masking vinyl that is deliberately intended for this purposes. I believe the adhesive is formulated differently so that the vinyl can be removed easier and not damage any paint work.

The sign shop in Omaha that cut the decals happened to keep the stuff in stock. (I believe he said he uses it on a regular basis for applying graphics to custom awnings.)

Be sure to ask your sign shop about this vinyl. If they don't have it, I'm sure they know where they can order it. If they don't know about it, you can find it at www.signwarehouse.com (Look under "Spray Mask".)

Mr. Coiffman and others who have contributed to his library have done a tremendous job and put in a lot of hard work. This is one side of preservation that maybe we don't often think about.

Although a lot of hard work has gone into this project, there are "discrepancies" in some of the fonts, but this is not the fault of the author.

For example:

CityOf– which is what Mr. Coiffman calls the Union Pacific font that we see on late UP steam, the passenger fleet, and other rolling stock from that era– is locked in at one basic size. The font is similar to the "Futura" family of fonts, using very geometric shapes (perfectly circular O's and C's ) and pointy corners (A's, V's, M's, W's, etc.)

We found a problem when doing the lettering for the 4023. The font does not scale proportionally to the different size specs found on the UP drawing specs of the font. This meant that the letter "M" at 2 inches had a certain weight (thickness of the strokes), but the same letter "M" at 13 inches had a weight that was not proportional to the 2-inch "M". Each letter weight was defined for each size that was to be used.

So, we obtained from the archives a copy of the letter drawings in all the sizes we needed and created the appropriate artwork with Adobe Illustrator from the measurements and specs. It was an interesting process of drawing a lot of basic rectangles and ellipses, specifying the lengths and diameters, and then combining the shapes together to get what I wanted. If this font hadn't been so "simple" and geometrical, I think the process would have taken much longer.

The other thing to keep in mind is that railroads that are still in business, or were in business for a long time have made subtle changes to their identity. We found out that one of the drawings contained a revision made in the late 50's. The O and C's in "UNION PACIFIC" were altered to be more elliptical instead of circular. This was probably due to the application of very large type on ribbed gondolas and hoppers and they wanted all the letters to fit nicely between the ribs. Also from a visual standpoint, the perfectly circular O's and C's take up the most horizontal space and seem to stand out and dominate when all the letters are positioned closer together. Squishing the O and C's a little bit gives them a more uniform dimension when compared to the other letters.

All Mr. Coiffman has done is recreated a complete set of one instance of the font. When you think about all the above-mentioned variations that would happen over a portion of a railroad's history, for us to have an all-inclusive font for our computer would result in maybe as many as 8 or 9 different variations of a complete font set. Then instead of $10 for the font, you would shell out $100. A graphic designer like me might pay that much, but not your average small-scale model railroader, whose fonts are only ever going to be at most 1/4" to 1/2" tall.



I did the same thing for some Rio Grande lettering earlier this year. As with the subtle changes UP made in their lettering, the Rio Grande also had similar alterations over the years. Things like: the size of the flying "Rio Grande", the length of the flying tails, the change from R.R. Roman-style reporting marks to a more modern "gothic" style. Using a couple of Railfonts got the basic lettering down (in all its flying glory) and then I altered the shapes based on a photo of an older DRGW hopper with the Roman reporting marks.

It’s been a long time since I’ve had the opportunity to letter a full size railroad car (the last one I did was shortly after the invention of paper, as I recall) but my work in the model hobby supply field over the last twenty five years has kept me in touch with all the same issues; how to generate accurate art for the historic lettering on objects that no longer exist, or no longer exist in the form we need to see.

My gold standard has always been tracings of the actual lettering, or flat on photos that could be traced directly, and now scanned. My second choice is the company drawings that define the letters. Note that this is the drawings that actually define the letterforms themselves, not the drawings that specify their placement. Back in the days before CAD, the lettering shown in the placement drawings is NOT the actual lettering reduced, it is simply something the draftsman doodled in to scale, sort of, to show what went where and where the dimensions related to.

Why is the official documentation my second choice? Because it only shows what was intended, while photos or tracings of the actual lettering show what was actually there.

Unfortunately, what we normally end up working from is photos taken to show the entire car, and thus encounter problems with film grain and flare making light objects in the photo appear bigger and bolder than they actually were.

We had a custom job a number of years ago where the customer wanted museum quality reproduction of the lettering on a WWI era coal hopper of which he had a single ¾ view photo. The car was lettered SHAWMUTT COAL in 14” lettering, the PS&N initials were 10”, the car number 7”, and the end reporting marks were 4”, all in what appeared to be the same Roman font. The customer had a graphic artist of his choice draw the art and send it to us.

The graphic artist just drew the large lettering, which was the easiest to see, then photo reduced it to all the other sizes needed, and the effect was just as RR_GraphixGuy described above. The thin strokes of the smaller letters almost disappeared, and in general, the smaller letters looked too wimpy, and didn’t seem to match the large lettering at all.

I discussed it with our graphic artist, and ended blowing up portions of the original photo with the stat camera so we could get some measurements. Obviously, when I mention a stat camera, this is pre computer graphics days, at least for us, and we had no easy way of reversing the perspective in the photo. However, all we really needed was to establish a ratio between the broad and narrow strokes of the letters, and this could be done accurately anyplace in the photo where a narrow stroke intersected a broad stroke, such as the center bar of an H or the loop of a P. We established a ratio for each size of lettering we needed, and of course each was different. Charlie then made good on the artist part of his graphic artist title and hand drew the lettering by eye.

Adobe Illustrator makes all this a lot easier, but the basic techniques are still the same. Now days an image can be easily manipulated to bring the lettering into a normal plane, but the lettering still needs to be drawn over to sharpen the edges and fill in portions that don’t show, and Railfonts is an excellent source of lettering to which the modifications can be made. Starting with a similar font gives the benefit of the font creator's familiarity with the style and proportion of letterforms in general. The modifications in stroke width then become an exercise in making an already nicely proportioned letter match what shows in the photo. I should have stressed in my original message that these extra steps are needed to ensure that the final product matches what was actually on the equipment, or is as close as we have the ability to make it.

Larry -

how did you letter the AT&SF #3751?

Jim