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Passenger car side repairs: remove rivets with rivet buster?
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22740		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Doug Debs 2472 [ Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Passenger car side repairs: remove rivets with rivet buster?
We are investigating the best way to repair heavyweight steel passenger car exterior areas - as usual, generally at the bottom of the wall near the side sill. We have several cars with excellent (and very original S.P.) interiors that we do not want to tear apart for exterior repairs.

Does anyone have recommendations about removing hot rivets with a pneumatic rivet buster?

After replacing corroded plate etc, we are considering using Huck BOM blind structural rivets. These are stronger in shear and tensile than the same size hot rivets. A button-head steel "doughnut" would be applied over each BOM head to make it look like a hot rivet. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance
- Doug Debs
Golden Gate Railroad Musuem
tel: 408-433-2672 office, 650-704-1487 cell
e-mail: doug.debs@fcimg.com
Author:  Gary Gray [ Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Passenger car side repairs: remove rivets with rivet bus
Doug, Absolutely the best repairs I have ever seen done to a heavyweight car, at least in the terms of looking like the car was new, is the work done by Steve Smith's associates in the Roanoke area. I know that Rick, and his assistant, Eddie, use plasma cutters, mig welding, and dummy rivets which match the size of the originals. Perhaps Steve can post a photo or two of their work, and give more technical details on the techniques used. There is absolutely no distortion in the side sheets of their Pullman observation, and it was a very rusty M of W service veteran.
Author:  Bob Kutella [ Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Passenger car side repairs: remove rivets with rivet bus
There are a number of HUCK fasteners available, or at least there were. We were able to rent the machine to install them. What size are you envisioning is necessary?

Bob Kutella
Author:  Doug Debs 2472 [ Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Passenger car side repairs: remove rivets with rivet bus
[quote="Bob Kutella"] There are a number of HUCK fasteners available, or at least there were. We were able to rent the machine to install them. What size are you envisioning is necessary?


Only Huck BOM have adequate strength and size: 3/16"-3/4" shank diameter. I suspect we'll mostly use 3/8"-1/2"-5/8" shank diameters.

Huck's other blind rivets are not adequate substitutes for BOMs or hot rivets:

Huck Magna-Lock are only made in 3/16-3/8 shank diameters, which is too small for most RR car work. Also they're much weaker than the same size BOM.

Huck Magna-Bulb look more like button-head pop rivets, but they're still noticeably weaker than the same-size BOM, and only available 3/16"-5/16" shank diameters.

- Doug Debs
Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Passenger car side repairs: remove rivets with rivet bus
I would suspect that attempting to bust the rivets on a passenger car would deform the rather light gage side sheet, although it should work if you can do it from the structural faming side.

There is always grinding, but beware. The guys at North Freedom were grinding the heads off lower body rivets on Soo Line diner lounge 2017 (Barney & Smith, 1914) and got the shanks of the rivets so hot that they started the horse hair insulation in the floor on fire. The car was saved, but the local fire department had to take their rescue saw to the stainless steel galley floor to extinguish the smoldering insulation.

I've often wondered if a magnetic drill press couldn't be used to drill the heads off. Positioning on each rivet would be a bit finicky, but the actual drilling would take a lot less effort than grinding.
Author:  J.David [ Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Passenger car side repairs: remove rivets with rivet bus
Dear Doug:
At The Valley Railroad we often use a rivet buster on big jobs. Since the object of the project is to replace rusted car sides, any damage to the original car side is irrelivent. Since no heat is involved, there is no danger of setting insulation or interior wood floor or framing on fire. Once we have the old side free at the bottom edge, we stick a garden hose into the opening and saturate the adjacent materials prior to cutting the side. We have used both torches and cutoff wheels with equal success.
Good luck.
J.David
Author:  jsmatlak [ Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Passenger car side repairs: remove rivets with rivet bus
On an historical note, the recent reprint from OERM "The Work of the Railway Carman" has a section devoted to the use of the rivet buster. The cover photo in fact shows a three man crew at work with a rather large version of this tool. http://www.oerm.org/pdf/Carman%20book%20release.pdf

To quote from the text:
"The rivet cutting gun is a tool cylindrical in structure about four feet in length"
"The element of danger is ever present in the cutting of rivets with the gun. The gun will cut a 5/8 inch rivet in about two strokes, which gives some idea of the power of the machine.......When rivet heads are cut from the side of the car, they fly through the air at high speed for a distance of sometimes 30 feet.....Sometimes a piece of burlap or a broom is held over the rivet to prevent the head from flying, but this service requires the assignment of a fourth man to the gun crew, and this generally is not done"

Different times to be sure! Does anyone have one of these big rivet busters (perhaps only as a museum piece)?


Dear Doug:
At The Valley Railroad we often use a rivet buster on big jobs. Since the object of the project is to replace rusted car sides, any damage to the original car side is irrelivent. Since no heat is involved, there is no danger of setting insulation or interior wood floor or framing on fire. Once we have the old side free at the bottom edge, we stick a garden hose into the opening and saturate the adjacent materials prior to cutting the side. We have used both torches and cutoff wheels with equal success.
Good luck.
J.David[url][/url]
Author:  Doug Debs 2472 [ Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Passenger car side repairs: remove rivets with rivet bus
Many thanks to all who responded to this question!

Aditional responses received by phone & personal conversations:

Dennis Dougherty, California State RR Museum CMO, recommended use of a rivet buster. He said that for RR passenger car work, a CP #3 or #4 chipping hammer and chisels would be the right size.

Boilermaker Mike Russell suggested cutting off rivet heads with oxy-acetylene torch and scarfing tip. Advantage: Clean cut, no metal smeared sideways, easier to punch ut rivet shank. Disadvantage: Beware of insulation fires inside wall.

Car restorer & owner Ralph Domenici leaves rivets in place when the surrounding plate is OK. He uses a hole saw to cut an oversize hole in the plate around each rivet head, cuts new plate to fit, then welds new plate to disks of original plate. Also he plug-welds new plate to old structural members. He drils holes in plate above welding area and applies CO2 gas to prevent combustiuon of insulation, where it isn't practical to pull out the old insulation. Advantage: minimize no. of new rivets needed. Disadvantage: lots of welding needed, beware of insulation fires.

- Doug Debs
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