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| Replica steam locomotives https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22960 |
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| Author: | railroadhistorygeek [ Sat May 12, 2007 4:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Replica steam locomotives |
Does anyone think the steam preservation/museum/tourist community in the US will ever build or have built a mainline sized steam locomotive? Eventually everything wears out, and we can probably coax another 30 to 50 years of service out of our aging engines, but then what? Maybe in 50 years a GP9 pulling a tourist train will be just as thrilling, but maybe not. My appologies if this is a duplicate topic. I just recently joined the group. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Sat May 12, 2007 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives |
I don't think so, mostly because mainline size steam is not economically feasable for the average tourist or museum operation. Check out a finely crafted article in the May 2005 TRAINS by Erik Ledbetter. Case in point: the Chinese QJs. Cost less than an overhaul of a park hulk, delivered in like new compliant condition, spares available off the shelf and no takers. I am aware of real discussions taking place about replicating smaller locomotives suitable for tourist and museum service, and work with one of the builders of the Jupiter and 119. dave |
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| Author: | Joshua K. Blay [ Sat May 12, 2007 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives |
It would be nice to happen here in the USA as well but I would say there would guess there would be way too much disagreement on which engine to replicate, and also where would you run them? NYC hudson- which variation? NH hudson? DL&W Hudson? Milw 4-4-2 or 4-6-2? SP mountain? (Insert your favroite engine here) It is possible though. Two 4-4-0s have been made for the NPS, a third is currently under construction in the mid-west, and a 2-6-0 was started in Strasburg, PA. I'd like to see more smaller replicas (4-4-0s, 2-6-0s, 4-6-0s). As long as there is standard gauge track and a personal drive and desire, I think we have enough big engines restored or saved that could be restored to last for a very, very long time. Joshua |
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| Author: | Catalpa [ Sat May 12, 2007 6:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica Steam Locomotives |
While not exactly 2007 contemporary construction, the B&O Museum's Tom Thumb and Lafayette, were built as operating replicas in 1927, for the Fair of the Iron Horse and the John Bull, now at the RR Museum of Pennsylvania, was built by the Pennsy as an operating replica for the New York World's Fair in 1939-1940. They were constructed by the skilled railroad craftsmen at Mt. Clare and Altoona locomotive shops, respectively. The engines are now 80 and 67 years old. Today, all three are historic pieces in their own right. The John Bull replica was copied from the actual locomotive at the Smithsonian, and the B&O used the best contemporary information available, to duplicate their two pieces. I remember John Hankey, of the B&O Museum at the time, saying in 1980 that the Tom Thumb was not as accurate a replica as the Lafayette, but the railroads made the effort. The two B&O engines and the John Bull were built as operating replicas and remain operable and available for us to enjoy today. The RR Museum of Pennsylvania has a nice webpage for the engine: http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/johnbull.htm. Sadly, the B&O Museum lacks web pages for their collection. |
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| Author: | railroadhistorygeek [ Sat May 12, 2007 10:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives |
I made a mistake in my original post, and the thoughtful responses helped me clarify my idea in my (feeble) mind. I don't advocate building replica heavy mainline locomotives, such as PRR K4s' or B&O Q's (showing my Eastern seaboard bias.) It would be much too expensive to replicate these machines, probably to the tune of millions of dollars each. When I said mainline steam, I was referring to locomotives large enough to haul standard size rolling stock, like a 4-4-0 or 4-6-0. Still a pretty big engine, but much smaller than, say, a Berk. In at least one instance that I know of there were political reasons for not going with the Chinese locos, and nothing to do with Communism, etc. When I worked with John Hankey in the 1990's he said the Thumb replica wan't that accurate, but I seem to remember that it was built oversize to make it easier to operate. |
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| Author: | johnny winkler [ Sat May 12, 2007 11:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives |
I would like to build a L&N L-1 USRA 4-8-2 Light Mountain.It is big but light enough to run on the ex-L&N "Old Line" between Etowah and Copperhill,Tennessee.They ran here in regular service some and one pulled the last scheduled passenger train on the line. Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum is running diesel excursions on the route almost daily this summer.It is a dream of mine to rebuild one of these engines ,and base it out of Knoxville,Tenn with at least one track put back in at the L&N station for occasional appearances. |
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| Author: | R Netz [ Sun May 13, 2007 4:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives |
What ever happened to the replica engine, I believe it was a 4-6-0, that was being built in England? As I remember they had new cylinders cast and machined and I think they even had the boiler built. This was several years back and I never heard any more about it. Roger |
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| Author: | Joshua K. Blay [ Sun May 13, 2007 5:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives |
Its a 3 cylinder 4-6-2. http://www.a1steam.com/update.html There are numerous re-constructions in progress througout the country, mostly using existing engines and backdating them to predecessor, and extinct, designs. Really hoping to get to the UK next year, its been awhile. Joshua |
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| Author: | Richard Glueck [ Sun May 13, 2007 12:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives |
According to the most recent "Steam Heritage" magazines from England, the A1 Pacific, "Tornado", should be finished and operating, perhaps as early as this year. It has been a long journey, but this shows a major difference between the attitudes and economics of British vs. U.S. railroad preservation. The Brits depend on railroads as the life blood of the nation; we depend on highways, trucks, and planes. The Brits have a heritage lottery; we don't. The Brits have named locomotives after every conceivable town, castle, personage, shipping line, and mythical character, encouraging a cult following; we don't. One may also be appraised of the fact that enough British steam, and steam parts, were saved from the Barry scrap yards, to reincarnate several extinct classes, though not without controversy. In the USA, we have enough preserved steam and "preserved" (park) steam to keep us busy for centuries, but we lack a public resolve to rebuild it, operate, and celebrate it. Furthermore, Americans put the profit margin far, far, ahead of everything else, except perhaps liability. In my opinion, which carries little weight anywhere, though everyone is entitled to it, while 1361 was being rebuilt, a second sister might have been rebuilt alongside of her. If American steam interests ever reconstruct an extinct steam locomotive, probably a NYC Hudson will get the first nod. It won't happen, since almost every part will have to be custom designed, engineered, fabricated, etc. Then like idiots, only one part will be made, rather than two or three. It won't happen on this side of the Atlantic, I'm sorry to say. |
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| Author: | bbunge [ Sun May 13, 2007 2:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives |
Quote: If American steam interests ever reconstruct an extinct steam locomotive, probably a NYC Hudson will get the first nod. It won't happen, since almost every part will have to be custom designed, engineered, fabricated, etc.
If someone would show up with $10-30 million to do this, do drawing and engineering details exist for an NYC Hudson? Bob |
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| Author: | Bob Kutella [ Sun May 13, 2007 7:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives |
Well, not a giant 3 cylinder Pacific, but the "LEVIATHON" is named and remarkably far along. Depending on a number of factors, first steamup MAY be within the next 12 months. Bob Kutella |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun May 13, 2007 9:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives |
Quote: If someone would show up with $10-30 million to do this, do drawing and engineering details exist for an NYC Hudson?
Enough drawings exist in the live-steam fraternity alone, I'm sure. However, let us remember that part of the opportunity that arises with a replica steamer is the opportunity to apply modern technology, fabrication techniques, etc. Remember that, as far as I can tell, the ability to cast a full-sized steam locomotive frame no longer exists in America. I think the A1 Project used laser-guided plasma cutters to fabricate the Pacific's frame. If we had it to do all over again, why not improve on the J3a with whatever AutoCAD, modern metalurgy, and modern machine tools can provide? |
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| Author: | superheater [ Sun May 13, 2007 9:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives - Not to be negative, but... |
If this ever happens, its going to have to be the "vanity" project of a rather wealthy individual, something like the people paying the big bucks to ride Russian space shots. There would certainly be no rational business reason to make a steam locomotive, given the razor thin margins and insecurity. Even if it were to come to pass.. there's some questions: Do you intend your engibe to be a a replica of a past engine, or do you use the all-welded boiler and exotic alloys? When is it a replica and when is it an "inspired" design? For some components, the construction techniques of the past, such as sand casting are lost arts? We can be sure that What about the appliances that were purchased from suppliers like Franklin Railway Supply? A big part of the effort would be replicating the specialty apparatus' that are also relegated to history. There was a reason why even in-house builders like Roanoke & Juniata got the jewelry from specialists. Finally, is there an exception from EPA/FRA regulations for new locomotives just because the production is one of a kind or steam? |
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| Author: | Richard Glueck [ Sun May 13, 2007 9:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives |
This reminds me of another British coup. The A4 Pacific "Bittern" (sister of "Mallard") was the last steam loco to pull a passenger train in Great Britain, having been officially retired, and re-fired while still cooling down, to cover a Diesel that bombed out. What is more interesting, is that "Bittern's" frame was severely cracked, forward of the lead drivers. In America, is would probably be considered beyond economic repair. The Brits cut the lead 12 feet off, recast that portion and welded it back into the remaining original frame. So much for unrepairable. "Bittern" was recently re-fired for operation on the mainlines. |
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| Author: | Bob Kutella [ Mon May 14, 2007 5:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Replica steam locomotives - Not to be negative, but... |
I suppose if you are paying the ticket, you get to make the choices. My understanding is that the LEVIATHON will be using a new welded style boiler, and will be an oil burner as opposed to the wood burning original. But in looking at photos - the domes, cab, pilot, tender, running gear, paintwork, and gold leafing are better than I could make it. Bob Kutella |
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