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| San Francisco electric transit https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2319 |
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| Author: | Dick Ikenberry [ Fri Nov 30, 2001 10:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | San Francisco electric transit |
On another board was raised the issue of the 1922 GM-Firestone-Standard Oil of California campaign to eliminate trolley and interurban transit in our country (see http://www.bilderberg.org/socal.htm). It was tragically effective in the Los Angeles area. But to the north, at least five major streetcar lines and many other electric bus lines survive to this day in San Francisco, in defiance of the planned internal-combustion coup. Does anyone know how this much electric transit survived the destructive campaign? |
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| Author: | Ted Miles [ Fri Nov 30, 2001 12:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: San Francisco electric transit |
The National city Lines was also here in northern California. They bought the Key System in Oakland and bused as they did so many others. In San Francisco there were two reasons that the Municipal Railway stayed with electric powered vehicles. The city owned Hetch Hetchy power dam did and does supply free power to run the system.And there are tunnels and private right of way that could not support buses. Today we must be one of the few places that are converting electric trolley buses and even Diesel bus routes back to street car lines. The F Line is a great success and there is more to come with new Light Rail. One other thing,Oakland is thinking Light Rail for some of the same streets that Key ran street cars on until 1948. ted_miles@NPS.gov |
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| Author: | Aarne H. Frobom [ Fri Nov 30, 2001 5:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | National City Lines conspiracy theory |
"the 1922 GM-Firestone-Standard Oil of California campaign to eliminate trolley and interurban transit was tragically effective . . ." The National City Lines case continues to provide a good illustration of the persistence of myths. In this case, the contentions of trolley enthusiasts in the late-1940's Snell report have been given a second life by anti-corporate crusaders associated with Ralph Nader in the 1970's, and revived again in the 1990's by the PBS TV show, "Taken for a Ride." Conspiracy theories are always highly entertaining. The theory is that trolley service would have survived if it had not been aggressively killed by the holding company formed by GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil. The facts of the matter have been pretty well established by Cliff Slater, in his article, "General Motors and the Demise of Streetcars" in the Summer, 1997 issue of "Transportation Quarterly," the journal of the Eno Transportation Foundation. This article should be required reading for anyone interested in urban transit history. It was followed by three more articles in the Winter, 1998, issue, including an (unconvincing) rebuttal and a comment by historian Brian Cudahy. Briefly, the National City Lines cities appear not to have been more eager to abandon trolley service than the cities where the trolleys were under other private or municipal control, including cities in other countries. Other points that the conspiracy theorists have never acknowledged are the eagerness on the part of city governments (and sometimes riders) to adopt bus service, the ability of buses to stop at the curb instead of in mid-street "safety zones," and the ability of buses to navigate streets increasinly clogged with cars and to steer around an obstruction to keep a schedule (something a streetcar can never do). One point not raised by Slater but in my mind the most significant is the state of street-railway physical plants in the period of interest, 1945-1955. Apologists for the conspiracy theory always ignore the cost of maintaining the street trackage and overhead, which on most systems must have been close to life-expired by the time service ended. Facts are lacking on this point, but ties and girder rail don't last forever, and I suspect if the need for fixed-plant reinvestment were included, the demise of streetcars would be seen to have been even more certain. Aarne H. Frobom froboma@mdot.state.mi.us |
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| Author: | Derick Sturke [ Mon Dec 03, 2001 5:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: National City Lines conspiracy theory |
Mr. Frobom, et. al.: I would submit that as well as physical plant deterioration, simply fewer people were riding rails of any form as the automobile grew in popularity. > The theory is that trolley service would > have survived if it had not been > aggressively killed by the holding company > formed by GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil. I would say that just mercifully pulled the plug on what was the inevitable. The rail transit was actually able to bow out with at least some of its dignity, as opposed to deteriorating into a rolling wreck. While hindsight is--as they say--20/20, it is easier to look at the loss of what was than the reality at the time. In some sort of Mega Mega Cycle, we are indeed discovering fixed guideway transit again. It is all too easy to say "If only they hadn't...." but the world was different then. > The facts of the matter have been pretty > well established by Cliff Slater, in his > article, "General Motors and the Demise > of Streetcars" in the Summer, 1997 > issue of "Transportation > Quarterly," the journal of the Eno > Transportation Foundation. This article > should be required reading for anyone > interested in urban transit history. It was > followed by three more articles in the > Winter, 1998, issue, including an > (unconvincing) rebuttal and a comment by > historian Brian Cudahy. Do you know if these can be found on line? Appreciate if you know the links, looks very interesting! Derick Sturke PS as an old Oaklander, any details on the considered light rail in Oakland? fwsturke@pacbell.net |
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| Author: | Hume Kading [ Mon Dec 03, 2001 8:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | GM Conspiracy Link |
Here's one. GM Conspiracy Link hkading@rypn.org |
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