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The reasons for no. 1361 being selected, I suspect, were much more prosaic. The city fathers, not the PRR, were behind putting an engine up on Horseshoe Curve. They were the ones who wanted an Altoona-built engine. The order came down the chain of command from Philadelphia, and someone from the division office went out to East Altoona, where there were rows and rows of stored engines awaiting disposition. No. 1361 happened to be the Altoona-built engine closest to the head of the line, having been sitting there awaiting its fate for a year or more -- and the rest is history.

There were certainly other Altoona-built K-4s engines at East Altoona, some of which had arrived much more recently than 1361, but digging them out of the storage lines would have been much more difficult and involved. Looking at photos from that period, I estimate there were close to 100 locomotives of numerous classes stored there.

Author:	bobyar2001 [ Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:	PRR 4483
When still displayed at Wilmerding, Pa., in 1971: http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?a ... s_4483.jpg http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?a ... _4483a.jpg And the 1361 at the Curve, same year: http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?a ... _1361a.jpg

Author:	Dave Lewandoski [ Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: PRR 4483
love the Pennsy pics. keep'm coming!

Author:	davew833 [ Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: PRR 4483
Wow... 1361 looked pretty good in '71. Almost looks ready to run.

Author:	Richard Glueck [ Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: PRR 1361
Yes, seeing her repainted on the curve, she was doing her job just rightly. She was giving the public a notion of what used to climb up and drift down the Curve innumerable times a day. But face it, and I mean it with understanding of your reflection, it was that "looks like she's ready to run" appearance that got her into where she is today. There were probably much better condition K4's from which to choose for the Curve, but PRR wanted an Altoona built loco at all costs. Consequently, of those available from which to choose, 1361 got the honors. As we have read, 1361 was already in tough shape when she posed in 1957.

Author:	Les Beckman [ Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: PRR 1361/Altoona built
Richard Glueck wrote: There were probably much better condition K4's from which to choose for the Curve, but PRR wanted an Altoona built loco at all costs. Consequently, of those available from which to choose, 1361 got the honors. Richard - That is kind of interesting. The Pennsy wanted an Altoona built loco at all costs. But when the Kentucky Railway Museum had their pick of the surviving K1 Pacifics from the L&N, they chose a Rogers built engine (the 152) rather than one built in the railroads own Louisville shops. I'm certainly glad that the 152 is with us today, but have always been curious as to why KRM didn't pick one of the home-built 4-6-2's. Likewise, the Nickel Plate Road had chosen a W&LE heavy USRA Mikado to put on display but the locals wanted a "home built" (in Brewster, Ohio) locomotive, so instead of the Mike, NKP 0-6-0 #3960 (ex-W&LE 360) took its place. Funny how preservation went some times. Les

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PRR 4483 https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23410	Page 1 of 2

Author:	G. W. Laepple [ Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: PRR 1361/Altoona built
The reasons for no. 1361 being selected, I suspect, were much more prosaic. The city fathers, not the PRR, were behind putting an engine up on Horseshoe Curve. They were the ones who wanted an Altoona-built engine. The order came down the chain of command from Philadelphia, and someone from the division office went out to East Altoona, where there were rows and rows of stored engines awaiting disposition. No. 1361 happened to be the Altoona-built engine closest to the head of the line, having been sitting there awaiting its fate for a year or more -- and the rest is history. There were certainly other Altoona-built K-4s engines at East Altoona, some of which had arrived much more recently than 1361, but digging them out of the storage lines would have been much more difficult and involved. Looking at photos from that period, I estimate there were close to 100 locomotives of numerous classes stored there.

Author:	Les Beckman [ Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: PRR 1361/Altoona built
G. W. Laepple wrote: The reasons for no. 1361 being selected, I suspect, were much more prosaic. The city fathers, not the PRR, were behind putting an engine up on Horseshoe Curve. They were the ones who wanted an Altoona-built engine. The order came down the chain of command from Philadelphia, and someone from the division office went out to East Altoona, where there were rows and rows of stored engines awaiting disposition. No. 1361 happened to be the Altoona-built engine closest to the head of the line, having been sitting there awaiting its fate for a year or more -- and the rest is history. There were certainly other Altoona-built K-4s engines at East Altoona, some of which had arrived much more recently than 1361, but digging them out of the storage lines would have been much more difficult and involved. Looking at photos from that period, I estimate there were close to 100 locomotives of numerous classes stored there. GW - That TOO is interesting. I once congratulated one of the members of the group in Centralia, Illinois for picking the "class engine" (4-8-2 #2500) to display in that Illinois Central city. He stated that the group had actually had a hard time convincing the IC to donate ANY locomotive and that President Wayne Johnson did not want to do it. After much pressure, Johnson finally relented and told the superintenent at Centralia to "give them the first stored engine in line!" That just happened to be the 2500. The group actually had WANTED one of the 2600 4-8-2's, but decided to take what they could get before Johnson changed his mind! Another example is the GTW engine given to the City of Durand, Michigan. Again, K4b 4-6-2 #5632 was supposedly the first engine in the scrap line. The crew that pulled it out supposedly had a heck of a time just getting it over the rickety trackwork. Wonder just how many locomotives ended up preserved just because they were in the right place at the right time? Les

Author:	Richard Glueck [ Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: PRR 1361/Altoona built
I would like to see those photos you referenced. Got a site or book ref?

Author:	Joshua K. Blay [ Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: PRR 1361/Altoona built
Just because engine was an icon of the system doesn't mean they had a better chance. Just ask our NYC friends where the hudsons or niagras went, well besides some tunnel or large barn, I'm surprised the PRR even saved two K4s. I almost have liked another M1 as much or more then a T or a J. JKB

Author:	Richard Glueck [ Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: PRR 1361/Altoona built
This is a common reference. I am not saying it's invalid, but the K4s was a symbol of the PRR, and well loved by crews and line side people. Of course, PRR saved quite a number of great locomotive designs, so we are grateful. I feel for everyone who tried to get Alfred Perlman to understand or see reason. By nevertheless, I would have expected a K4s to have ended up in Chicago or Philidelphia as well. That PRR squirreled them away at Northumberland for years, is amazing. What is done is done.

Author:	Kevin Gillespie [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: PRR 1361/Altoona built
This thread reminds me of what I was told about how CNR 7312 ended up at the Strasburg Railroad as their #31. According to one of the Strasburg officials who gave the shop tour ten days ago, 7312 had been the shop switcher at Stratford, Ontario. The crews were determined to keep her from being cut up, and at least twice moved her from the front to the back of the scrap line before the people from Strasburg showed up. They were most anxious for the engine to head to Pennsylvania and safety.

Author:	Ted Krumreich [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Locomotive preservation/luck of the draw
A similar story to that of Strasburg 31, ex-CN 7312, applies to Grand Trunk Western 2-8-2 #4070. The story is recounted in Foss' book Evening Before the Diesel. The 4070 was a favorite with the crews and, as a result, was held back in the roundhouse at Pontiac, MI when the calls came to send engines to the dead lines to be scrapped. The 4070 then became the last steam locomotive on the Grand Trunk to handle a revenue train in March, 1960. About a year later, the engine was purchased by Lou Keller for preservation.

Author:	survivingworldsteam [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Locomotive preservation/luck of the draw
An opposite story to the above happened in British railway preservation. (I don't remember the class and #, but Gavin or others may know.) A locomotive in a dead line was intended to be saved for preservation, and was marked as such ... but on one side only. The scrappers making their way up the dead line started work on the wrong side, and did not see the "save" mark until it was too late.

Author:	G. W. Laepple [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: PRR 1361/Altoona built
Take look at pages 132 and 133 of Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad." There are also similar views of laid-up engines in some of the Morning Sun PRR steam series.

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