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| Personal Liability Insurance https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23428 |
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| Author: | Jim Baker [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Personal Liability Insurance |
For many years I've had a personal liability "umbrella" insurance policy, that covered me in about anything I did. The renewal for this year just come in, and it specifically excludes coverage for anything having to do with a train. Does anyone out there have a personal policy that covers them while volunteering at a non-profit RR museum? If so, through what insurance company? The horrible scenario that I think of is that one day, I'm the engineer and a kid runs in front of the train, and the train runs over him. It would be bad enough to just have to face that, but then the parents sue not only the museum, which has insurance, but also me, as an individual. Thanks for any information you can provide. |
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| Author: | Gary Gray [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Personal Liability Insurance |
Jim, I'm an insurance agent out here on the "right coast". You might check with a Safeco Insurance agent in your area. I represent them here, and I just checked the underwriting guide. I didn't see anything that specifically excluded any volunteer activity, unless it was aviation related. Regards, |
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| Author: | softwerkslex [ Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Personal Liability Insurance |
I think your agent is picking on you. A "train" exclusion seems narrow and unusual. How many of the general public work with trains? You can expect to see exclusions for boats and aircraft. This exclusion may be aimed at the live steam miniature train hobby. I have umbrella coverage from Ohio Casualty, without any "train" exclusion. I have a miniature train, and there was some concern about that. To be extra safe, I have an "off road" vehicle rider on my policy, and a written statement from the agent saying it covers my miniature train activity. |
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| Author: | JimBoylan [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Personal Liability Insurance |
In the early 1970's, the New Hope & Ivyland Railroad and its engineer were sued by someone involved in a grade crossing accident. Hearsay has it that the railroad, being reorganized under chapter 77 of the Federal Bankruptcy Code, was not legally allowed to pay to defend the volunteer engineer, who was not an employee of the railroad. Instead, his homeowner's insurance company represented and defended him. Later, the railroad's trustee started worrying about volunteer help, in case they might not have sufficient insurance to protect the railroad. |
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| Author: | dand [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Personal Liability Insurance |
Your posting prompted me to ask my State Farm agent if I am covered over and above the railroads liability policy. Surprisingly the answer by phone was NO coverage for railroading. I called back later and requested a response in writing with the conditions that I am a non-paid volunteer on a 501 (c) 3 non-profit operating railroad museum, showing the specific exclusion. I hope to see that soon, perhaps today. dan |
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| Author: | jbwest [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A slightly different railfan liability issue |
Over the years I have been involved in running some steam photo charters both internationally and on the C&TS. It was a once or twice a yer activity, and never intended to be a profit-making business. Occasionally we made money, but most of the time we lost money or at best got a free trip for our efforts. Several years ago I discussed my liability coverage with my carrier (USAA). Basically I was told that if what I did "looked" like a business (as in selling tickets) even if it lost money it would be considered a business for coverage purposes, and therefore not covered as a "hobby" activity. So I quit doing it since appropriate "business" coverage was too expensive to be worthwhile. John West |
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| Author: | superheater [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Personal Liability Insurance-Not the Agent |
If a policy came in with new exclusions, it wasn't the agent. Prior to sale to the public, all policies, including endorsements, riders and amendments must be approved by your state's insurance regulator. Any changes would be done by the insurer, with state approval. (Although insurance was ruled to be "interstate commerce" in 1944 by the Supreme Court in the "Southeast(ern?) Underwiters" decision, and therefore subject to federal regulation -Congress obviously had other things on its plate and allowed the established state regulation that had existed pursuant to the 1869 Paul v. Virginia decision stand). Periodic attempts to create a federal regulator have stalled, primarily because the "benefit" of consistent regulation has largely been accomplished through the National Association of Insurance Commissioners (NAIC) If the company took the time to exclude "rail" related liability, incur the time, effort and expense to craft the exclusion, put it in the policy and then file the policy form with the regulator, you can bet some carrier paid out on a claim where personal liability was attached to something done on rails and ties. If there was a tort claim, either for a property, injury or death claim. The compay then made the decision to exclude such claims based on a decision that its not an exclusion many poliyholders will care about-but then presented the potential for a large claim. If one company makes a novel payment, they'll all think about it-because trade magazines and industry associations will publicize it. Its their job to be alert-they know about ALL the cases like where the little old lady burned herself with coffee. We rally need to stop thinking about insurers as predators. Yes, they are large and ocasionally less than perfect-but generally they've learned that paying legitimate claims, quickly and fairly is good business. If anybody's picking on people who engage in an unusual adventures-its the juries that make the awards that create the loss potential that gets an insurers attention. |
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| Author: | Jim Baker [ Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Personal Liability Insurance |
Dand: My policy is with State Farm, too. I'm in California, are you? Actually, they don't seem to be picking on just trains,, the new exclusions also apply to airplanes, truck tractors, truck tractor trailers and farm tractors/farm implements. I also checked with AAA, and their umbrella won't cover trains either. Our museum does have a multi-million liability policy, that, at least according to the museum's agent, would cover me as a volunteer. And I do have that in writing. Thanks to everyone else for their information. |
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| Author: | dand [ Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Personal Liability Insurance |
Jim, I just returned from a great weekend at SVRy. Actually it was almost too hot, especially in the cab of 19. But as always I had a great time. On the way to SVRy my agent called to say the conditions I stated DOES NOT exclude me. If I owned a locomotive, or work for someone or corporation that owns the locomotive I operate, then I would be excluded. As of now however, I am covered while operating the SVRy locomotive with personal liability insurance plus the coverage we have a SVRy. dan |
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