At Dennison, Ohio in 2006. A restoration project still not completed after 20 years.

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If I recall correctly the 2700 was retired pretty early. Does anybody know why or what the mechanical condition is? Looking at her from outside the fence in St. Albans 2700 did not look to worn out but it is hard to tell from 20 feet away.

John Bohon

How did this engine make it to Canton, Ohio from St. Albans, WV?

I remember hearing the same thing about the 2700 being in relatively good shape, too, but I have also heard that the C&O was notoriously rough on locomotives in steam's final days.

C&O 2700 was leased by the Silver Throttle Engine and Museum Association, or STEAM, from a Fireman's Association in St. Albans, WV who claimed ownership of the engine and took care of it, loosely speaking, in Coonskin Park. In 1985, or thereabouts, the 2700 was towed by Chessie/CSX to Canton, Ohio where work was started on its restoration on a spur on Esber Beverage's property off of the W&LE's Canton Line. The engine was almost within eyesight from I-77 at the Cleveland Avenue exit just south of Rt.30 in Canton.

I've lived in the Canton area now for about 5 years and have come to know the group's founder as well as approximately 8 or so of the original member's of the restoration crew. Most are well respected live steamers and/or railroaders in the Midwest and it's truly a shame that this engine was never completely restored. One member, Charlie Bentley, had already built a magnificent 1.5" scale operating model of 2700 and another member, Dick Dute, is building one right now. The group, under the leadership of Gary Antonacci and Ken Baldwin, had the financial backing of the widow of the Timken family of railroad roller-bearing fame.

As the restoration progressed, the group began to occupy more and more of Esber Beverage's parking lot. I've been told the owner, for the most part, didn't mind the group using his property and was obviosly supportive of seeing this engine return to steam. However, the lack of an organization cohesive effort in the field got a bit out of hand. The fellow who led the charge in the field was not a good leader of men. He is known by many as an ego-maniac who wanted to do things his way and thereby lost the respect of the active membership who really knew what they were doing. The "my way the highway" mentality usually spells disaster for most volunteer organinzations and this one was no different. In the end, his ways fragmented the group and drove a lot of good people away. The restoration lost momentum and progress slowed. The Timken family started pulling back on their support and Gary and Ken couldn't get funding from new sources.

Now we're fast forwarded to 1993 or so. The W&LE has been in existance a couple of years, the restoration has slowed almost to a standstill. Enter one of the alleged "owners" of the engine who has decided to exercise legal action to take the engine back since STEAM's lease agreement had a contingency that the engine would be operational within, I believe, 5 year's time. STEAM had made progress as much of the running gear and the tender had been restored. Timken and the City of Canton wanted to develop some property for a park between the W&LE mainline and the Esber Property and the 2700's spur had to go. Esber wasn't going to ever want rail service again so 2700 had to be moved. By this time, STEAM was a rather splintered organization that was a mere shadow of its former self. The intial players had quit and moved on to other endeavors. The alleged "owner" had won a couple battles in court and STEAM didn't have any more money or leverage to continue fighting although the alleged "owner" was pretty well known to be a fraud by most of the group's members.

The above is really a sad sordid affair. I've talked to many of the original member's of the group and it still is a rather bitter sweet memory for most all of them. The Wheeling under its current leadership has never been steam friendly, especially since they showed up on the scene only to find Bill Benson's RDG 2100 "squatting" in the Brewster backshops for years without paying any rent. Hence, they weren't interested in helping STEAM find a new home for 2700 and it wasn't really their engine any more. Enter Jerry Jacobsen who accepted the court's request to give the 2700 a home in Dennison. (He also provided space for 2100 until Tom Payne purchased her from Bill Benson, Tom Kughn and friends).

Mechanically, the 2700's boiler needs a lot of attention, especially the firebox. As you can imagine, firebox repairs on a Van Sweringen 2-8-4 aren't cheap. I've always thought that Jerry would someday take an interest in restoring 2700. Now NKP 763 is ready to head for Morgan Run and become the next OC steamer to get restored. At one time after 2700 was moved to Dennison, Ft.Wayne was supposedly close to signing a lease for 2700 and had even gone so far as to move rods and other smaller components of the 2700 to Ft. Wayne. With all the legal manuevering going on with the "alleged" owner, even this deal fell through and the engine sits partial dissassembled but somewhat presentable condition at the head of display train at the Dennison Railroad Museum. It's not the best final resting place for this one-time heavy freight and passenger hauling Super Power engine, but it's better than the alternative. Perhaps in the future, another group will muster their best organizational skills and efforts and try to bring life to the class engine of the C&O's famed 2700 class of Kanawhas. Until that day, we must wait patiently. Perhaps the Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum will resume work on 2789 at North Judson or KRM or some other group will take interest in 2716.

Sincerely,

Rob Gardner

The C&O saw the end of steam coming years prior and prepared for it by minimizing maintenance on their locomotives. Over time, as engines were forcibly retired, others were able to survive in relatively good shape.

Out of the engines in the deadline, the C&O picked these and only these as the ones to be dedicated as park engines. They kept the best for themselves and used them in traffic boom after steam had more or less been "let go." These engines were scrapped following the surge.

The restoration(s) of the 2716 may or may not be sufficient evidence of these late C&O practices, as the locomotive suffered a multitude of steaming issues when in use by Norfolk Southern, and to this day requires extensive firebox work, or perhaps even firebox replacement.

Hello,

Stephen made some good points here. From our perspective, we cannot understand why steam had deferred maintenance or faced wholesale scrapping by many of the Class I's. Put yourself in the shoes of railroad management. In many cases, a locomotive is a commodity. It hauls freight from point A to point B. The stock holders expect a return on their investment, so the corporate officers must decide the most economical way to do business.

Once full desielization was on the horizon, guess how fast they wanted to close down those massive shops and infrastructure that supported steam?....In a heartbeat. If few facilities exist, keep the steamer close to "home" and run it until it dies. If you need parts, rob it off another poor carcass that already was decommissioned. It was more likely dollars and cents versus what we call "abuse".

Perhaps not all railroads took this attitude. the N&W used steam way past the time others were phasing them out. Take for example the N&W 611 built in 1950. Diesels were definitely making inroads by then but it was ironic that the 611 was built that late. In addition, I heard stories of how nice the locomotives looked on the Western Maryland when they went to scrap.

On the flipside, it is a true disappointment that a locomotive the likes of the NYC Niagara was not saved. But to the NYC, once the equipment trusts ran out, they were pulled from the rosters. Their outstanding perfromance was part of their demise. The passenger business was on the decline and it didn't make sense to have that level of horsepower expended on small trains.

The Niagara's stellar performance was not just the locomotive alone. You don't rack up 25,000 miles per month without having an impeccable physical plant to support their operation. In the case of the NYC, they maintained all those track pans for scooping water by the locomotives at up to 80 MPH. That was extremely expensive to operate and maintain. Once diesels didn't need that infrastructure, the decision was easy.

Its hard to deny that the 300+ tons of steel in every locomotive in a dead line doesn't have residual scrap value. Again it mostly comes down to $$.

We can be glad that some RR exec's had a soft spot for steam in the post 1960's to see the comeback's we have.

Let's admit it, we are biased. We can be grateful we have the steam existing we do. If you would speak with our freinds in the UK, many of those groups would have been greatful to have a locomotive as complete as the 2700. Some of them brought locomotives back to life that were in far worse shape. Again its a matter of passion, will, dedication and of course.....dollars.

Best regards,

Randy Musselman

I have long been interested it what repairs different railroads considered the condemning limit for their steam locomotives toward the end of steam. This varries considerably from road to road. That was what I was fishing for with my question.

From the answers it would seem in the case of 2700 she needed major firebox repairs. It appears as though the machinery was in decent condition and could have continued with some lower cost repairs if the railroad had desired.

One of the reasons I ask was because I remember looking at the 2705 in Baltimore and noting it is a high mileage engine. From memory I also think it lasted until pretty late. This makes a good comparison for me to study.

One question does come to mind from the posts. When was 2716 retired? I seem to remember it had decent machinery and the firebox problems are pretty common knowlege for those of us who watched the steam program. If she was retired early I may detect a pattern.

John Bohon

Having the pleasure of experiencing 2716 roaring down the Southern main as one of my favorite formative railfan experiences, I have always wondered several things concerning these good looking and powerful engines.

1) What was the true extent of the firebox/boiler problems that ended 2716's career on NS? I remember a quote from Trains or R&R at the time that speculated that the problems were "more political than mechanical". In 1982, With the 611 nearing completion of her restoration, and 2716 having the "wrong" heritage, it might have been a natural conclusion for a program to sideline one engine when it had two (and in 611, a better one) to choose from.

2) Is it simply a matter that the right person or group has not encountered the right siuation with a Kanawha that we don't have at least one operable? Don't get me wrong, I understand steam loco restorations are formidably expensive, mainline-sized steam has few places to run, and that we should be grateful for any operable steam in 2007. However, when you consider that the Kanawhas have one piece cast bed frames, boosters, and roller bearings, it seems odd we haven't had one get restored and stay that way.

Perhaps it is because the C&O engines were more worn out in the boiler than comparable NKP or PM Berkshires? Or perhaps one has simply not been available?

For what it's worth, in my opinion, the 2755 in Chief Logan State Park looks to be in the nicest, most complete shape, at least cosmetically, of those I have seen. Maybe someday?

Todd

A year ago, my car broke down parked in front of 2705 and had a couple of hours to do nothing but look over the front row of engines pretty closely while awaiting a tow truck. I'm no expert... how does one notice if a loco is high mileage... what do you look for? While I looked at 2705, the one I found most interesting was 1309. However, I really can't recommend hanging around that area alone after the museum closes.

Bob

To answer Todd first I remember when 2716 limped back to Birmingham lite or possibly with diesel assistance there were reports the syphons were leaking. I think 2716, like 1218 later, may have been pushed out the shop door without a complete overhaul of the firebox. NS espected to do the work later thus the 1218 firebox is only an unfinshed shell.

To get an idea of the mileage on a locomotive since the last visit to the shop look at the machinery. Look at the wheels and tires to see how thick they are and how much wear the tread and flange have. If you can get close to the engine you can check the drivers to see how much lateral motion they have. Look at the spring rigging for wear and to see how level the springs sit. You can also check the crossheads for wear. Even the condition of the brake rigging can be an indicator.

Of course this is not a fool proof method. Looking at the 2700 from 20 feet away through a fence about all I could go on was the wear on the wheels and the condition of the spring rigging, what I could see of it. The Southern 542 at Spencer has new tires but closer inspection indicates they are about the only thing any good on the locomotive. Apparently she needed tires to run a little while longer before the replacement locomotive arrived. High speed mainline engines can be more difficult to judge just because they had to be maintained to a higher level. Shortline and logging engines can be in such poor condition you wonder how they stayed together to be pushed into the park.

John Bohon