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| Author: | Warren [ Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Boiler water treatment-questions |
We are trying to sort out the water treatment for our 30" gauge Shay and I have some questions for the locomotive guys. I am familiar with boiler water treatment as I have been doing it on stationary steam plants for over 30 years. My question is can the general guidelines for stationary boilers be used for locomotive type service for a lack of somewhere else to start? I know due to the complete loss nature of the steam in a locomotive and the water supply being mostly cold (for disolved gases,etc.) it would have to be somewhat different. What are the normal ranges for TDS,sulfites,pH,chlorides,phospates and so on or do you test for all the above or is there more that should be tested? We do have a water softner system that supplies our water tower, so I know we should be ahead of the game for calcium and magnesium (scale formers). But we do have a bit high ( I think) chloride count @ 90 ppm, and I know some of this is a function of the the O2 scavenger in sulfite residuals and blowdown frequency and can also be introduced from raw water via sodium sulphates. A deionizer would take care of this, but am I overthinking this particular problem? Thanks for any input or help. |
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| Author: | QJdriver [ Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Boiler water treatment-questions |
It sonds like you not only have a good idea of where to start, but that maybe you're overthinking this, too !!! When I worked for Texas State RR better than 10 years ago, we used to use chemicals and test kits made by Betz Entec, which did an excellent job for us. The only problem is that their system was too time consuming for regular use in the average roundhouse, and too complicated for use by a pool of mainly high school educated employees, many of whom did not fire all the time. My understanding is that they switched to a much simpler system marketed under the name of Iron Horse Water Treatment, and they are very happy with it. Many other locomotive operators are also quite pleased with the results, and some stationary installations have switched over to it as well. As far as I know, you just give some feedwater samples to their rep, and the factory tests them and then recommends the concentration of chemical for you to use. That's all there is to it. |
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| Author: | Bobk [ Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Boiler water treatment-questions |
We have been using Terlyn supplied by Ironhorse Water for some years now. It is easy to use and easy to monitor. This is a one shot chemical and we use a little anti foam along with it. So far we have been very pleased with the performance. Start here and they will direct you to Ironhorse water. http://www.terlyn.com/ |
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| Author: | whodom [ Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Boiler water treatment-questions |
You might also check into the system developed by L. D. Porta. It is being marketed out of the UK by Martyn Bane: http://www.portatreatment.com/ Porta's treatment system is based on the French TIA system, but supposedly simplified and improved. I don't know many details on its composition, but based on what's been written about it, it relies on maintaining a very high level of TDS. A powerful anti-foam agent is used in conjunction with this. Results in Argentina and the UK look very promising. |
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| Author: | tom casper [ Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Boiler water treatment-questions |
Bob, What do you use as "anti-foam" with your Terlyn? Tom C. |
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| Author: | Dave Sutter [ Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Boiler water treatment-questions |
When it comes to treating water I am not a fan of the so called "one-shot" treatments. I have seen the TDS and hardness of feedwater change dramatcially over the course of a few hours let alone days after a service rep has tested the feedwater. It seems a waste of chemical if at times all you have to do is add some sulfites to remove the disolved oxygen and you are stuck using a "one-shot" program. There seems to be more control when you use specific chemicals to control TDS, alkalinity, and disolved oxygen. I don't see why people would want to use more chemical than necessary or take short-cuts in water treatment. The extra effort put forth will save more in the long run. Dave Sutter |
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| Author: | Bobk [ Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Boiler water treatment-questions |
I don't have the specific number with me however it is a Nalco product. I'll have to go through past invoices to see what I have. |
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| Author: | William L. Petitjean, PE [ Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Boiler water treatment-questions |
Hi Everyone: I would like to weigh in on the locomotive boiler water treatment issue. Lubrication Specialties Corporation of Stearns, Kentucky is also a re-seller of TERLYN's LSB8000 and LSB4000 Locomotive Steam Boiler Treatment. Furthermore, we have written a Application and Monitoring Guide that explains the principles of LSB's action when used as a internal treatment, how to get started with a treatment program and how to maintain equilibrium conditions once the boiler (scaled boilers) is cleaned up. Finally, we sell a Hanna Combo pH/EC meter that will allow locomotive operators to test the pH and TDS concentration in their locomotive boilers so they can maintain equilibrium concentrations based on meaningful trend data rather than by guess and by gosh. LSB is sold as a one dose, single liquid chemical treatment and has proven to give good service when used with AVERAGE water conditions. The dosage recommendations are based on permanent hardness of 150 ppm. Where water conditions exhibit very low hardness and total dissolved solids are also low additional additives such as TSP may be required to maintain proper pH. Where water conditions exhibit higher than average permanent hardness and total dissolved solids concentrations boiler water conditions may force excessive blowdown. Anti-foams and anti sludging additives may be required. These conditions may justify trackside water treatment systems such as water softeners or reverse osmosis systems since the fuel dollars lost with excessive blowdown use can often pay for track side systems that will reduce the complexity and operating difficulties associated with really bad water and 100% internal treatment programs. The TERLYN technicians do not recommend the use of oxygen scavengers such as sulfates because they tend to degrade, thus losing their effectiveness. In our opinion concentration cell corrosion mechanisms like oxygen corrosion are mainly a problem when corrosive conditons are set up by improper monitoring of boiler water conditions. Once LSB cleans up a boiler by re-dissolving existing scale (or in a new boiler) it promotes the formation of a gamma magnetite layer that protects the boiler structure (carbon steel) from corrosive effects. Maintenance of the gamma magnetite layer is dependent on pH values above 10.5 (the optimum is 11.5 to 12). Therefore, constant monitoring of boiler water conditions, knowledge of the make up water chemistry, and familiarity with seasonal water chemistry changes are vital to the long term application of any water treatment program. In conclusion, water chemistry and boiler water treatment is an extremely complex subject that can be very confusing. The combination of TERLYN's LSB product with our Application and Monitoring Guide and the Hanna Combo pH/EC meter is an effort to introduce a good, solid basic treatment program that helps locomotive operators walk the thin line between corrosive conditions and scaling conditions. It forms the basis for many treatment programs that allow operators to tune their boiler water chemistry to severe local conditions by adding proven additional chemicals to the basic LSB treatment program. Why is a lubricant manufacturer so interested in water treatment? Good boiler water conditions promote clean steam to the cylinders. This allows good lubricants to maintain adequate lubricating films without the abrasive effect of entrained contaminants that are generated in dirty boilers. I hope the above is helpful. Those interested in further information can email me or go to our website. |
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| Author: | Robby Peartree [ Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Boiler water treatment-questions |
I think one needs to be careful here about criticizing one shot water treatment plans. Steam locomotives ran for years on such programs. The Narko balls could be argued is one such example. While truly understanding what is going on in your boiler is very important, it is also important to have a system that everyone understands. I was reminded during my time with a couple of tourist railroads that not everyone is a chemist and sometimes using the KISS principle actually helps eliminates problems in many cases. Add the pressures of either maintaining a schedule or worse being a minimum disruption to a busy main line and many outside influences can affect which treatment program you want for your situation. Every program that addresses water treatment is headed down a complex and dynamic road. Robby Peartree |
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| Author: | Dave Sutter [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Boiler water treatment-questions |
While I agree with the KISS method. I do beleive that it is important for at least one individual in the organization to thoroughly understand water treatment. Currently we are in preservation of equipment. We need to conserve the boilers as best we can. To that end our treatment is as follows: 1. A 4-5 gallon batch of feedwater all chemicals is made up to form one solution. 2 From the solution our fireman will fill a one quart container for each fill the tender will receive that day. 3 At each fill of the tender one quart of the chemical solution is added. Water test are done frequently so that any adjustments to the chemical ratios can be made before any major problems develop. It also helps to have a knowledgable treatment representative who is able to answer any questions we have and who realizes that chemical treatment is not our primary vocation but will educate us as much as possible. |
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| Author: | 060 Hogger [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Boiler water treatment-questions |
Greetings, I'd like to chime in as a Steam Power enthusiast who, on one hand, had searched for 40 years for a suitable and reliable water treatment that works in real world conditions and variations, especially when operating at different locations with a traction engine, auto or boat. On the other hand, being a trained professional in the steam marine and stationary power fields, I was experienced with many different programs and have access to materials and knowledge for many more. Over a period of about 15 years, I tried applying my training and the various programs to locomotives and the entire spectrum previously mentioned. Here is the Readers Digest and Campbell's Soup condensed version of what I have learned; All of the programs I tried worked to a good degree as far as limiting or controlling scale. The difficult part is in managing the programs under varying conditions, from multiple sources, wet vs. dry weather and a shifting water table, changes of location or sources en-route and last but not least, the human factor. The use of Sulfites in a cold feedwater situation is futile. The sulfite and it's decomposition products are highly electrically conductive and their presence in tender and boiler water actually contribute to corrosion. We have all seen the row of oxygen pits at the waterline. This damage is much more prevalent where sulfite is used in a cold feedwater situation. Likewise, being highly polar molecules, sulfites and sulfates also promote foaming and carryover . I'm not making this up, any well trained and experienced water treater, whether he is from Everyone Knows My Name or How Do You Do Timbuctu, knows this. Whether he passes it along to the customer is a different matter. Profits are generally high in the commercial industrial water treatment, folks...sell them sulfite whether they need it or not, because it is "customary", and most folks don't know the difference. Sulfites do have their place, as Warren well described, and that is where the feedwater is truly deaerated. That means the water was sprayed through a cloud of low pressure steam in a tank operating at least 219 Degrees Fahrenheit. This yields a Dissolved Oxygen about 40 Parts Per Billion. Cold feedwater has 8 parts per Million. The difference is 200,000 times more oxygen. You cannot hold enough sulfite residual in the boiler to avoid foaming due to the highly conductive ( and acidic )sulfate that it breaks down into. IMHO, treating a steaming boiler is easy with the " One Shots " and I have chosen to form a little business called BoilerSaver to make it available. Enough of that, let the comparative values of the different products speak for themselves. The most important thing is in educating the users and operators of historic equipment into having best preservation practices while actually using the machinery. The Real Damage that costs us a big bundle comes from letting boilers stand cold and unprotected from Dissolved Oxygen in the water. Yes, I know, we all know, that steaming drives the oxygen out of the water...but when that steam condenses, it forms a vacuum and draws a big breath of 21% oxygen air. So, the choices are: 1. Drain, wash out and Dry Out Thoroughly. This is often impractical on a weekly or even monthly availability schedule. A boiler that is coated with scale inside never really " dries out " the scale holds moisture and oxygen in close contact with the steel, where it pits away, 24/7/365. or 2. Blanket the boiler that is filled with water at the normal steaming level with Nitrogen gas. This is the way power plants, refineries and big industry hold their boilers in Wet Layup...of course with water that is at the correct pH and has no dissolved oxygen. I rest my case, Jim Conte |
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