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Did Disney Scrap 2-4-2s?
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Author:  HRMO'Biph [ Tue Dec 18, 2001 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Did Disney Scrap 2-4-2s?
All this talk of replica locomotives jogged my memory. I was recently in Florida, and was told that the Disney company had recently scrapped several steam locomotives built in the 80s for an aborted RR system to serve an RV park at D world. They were 36" guage 2-4-2 saddle tankers based on a 1880's Baldwin resort design. they were fully functional steamers, not any kind of diesel/hydraulic crap.

It would be a shame that Disney should scrap such engines when there are any number of places that those engines could have been utilized. It seems that of all entities on the Planet, that Disney could have afforded to make them available, if not for donation, at least sold them for what they weighed.

Any one know the full story?

lorija799@aol.com
Author:  Tom Shreve [ Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Disney Scrap 2-4-2s?
> All this talk of replica locomotives jogged
> my memory. I was recently in Florida, and
> was told that the Disney company had
> recently scrapped several steam locomotives
> built in the 80s for an aborted RR system to
> serve an RV park at D world. They were
> 36" guage 2-4-2 saddle tankers based on
> a 1880's Baldwin resort design. they were
> fully functional steamers, not any kind of
> diesel/hydraulic crap.

The engines weren't scrapped. They were given to the Carolwood Pacific Historical Society and auctioned to three of the members, possibly the largest pieces of Disneyana in existence. Disney Company made the stipulation that the engines were not to be run.

I have seen one of the engines and am not at liberty to say where or who owns it. It is an interesting example of what can go wrong when a park designs an engine. In order to have room for the P.A. system, they used 2/3 of the fuel tank, leaving about 50 gallons capacity. The water tank is equally small, with the air pump taking part of the area. Because the crews were not regular railroad crews someone decided that a low water alarm was more practical than a waterglass. At about 8 tons it is to light to really pull the 5 car train it was meant to pull. And by the way, it is 30 inch, not 36 inch gauge.

The engine is badly in need of repair as it has sat out in the weather for nearly 20 years but I am sure its new owner will do it right.



ironbartom@aol.com
Author:  Rob Davis [ Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Disney Scrap 2-4-2s?
According to Michael Broggie's wonderful book "Disney's Railroad Story," the Fort Wilderness train was a "Folly."

THe line ran 1973-1977. Four locomotives were built in 1973 was replica's of Bakdwin plantaion engines owned by other imagineers.

They were "4/5ths" scale, operated on 30" ga track and designed for No. 2 fuel oil.

The small water anf fuel capacity was a problem all along.

There were also frequent derailments from poor track engineering. Imagineer that?!?!
(User Above) wrote:
:
:-)


Rob Davis

superc@monmouth.com
Author:  Paul Hess [ Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Disney Scrap 2-4-2s?
Is one of these engines in Eastern TN or W. North Carolina, thought I heard that.

> All this talk of replica locomotives jogged
> my memory. I was recently in Florida, and
> was told that the Disney company had
> recently scrapped several steam locomotives
> built in the 80s for an aborted RR system to
> serve an RV park at D world. They were
> 36" guage 2-4-2 saddle tankers based on
> a 1880's Baldwin resort design. they were
> fully functional steamers, not any kind of
> diesel/hydraulic crap.

> It would be a shame that Disney should scrap
> such engines when there are any number of
> places that those engines could have been
> utilized. It seems that of all entities on
> the Planet, that Disney could have afforded
> to make them available, if not for donation,
> at least sold them for what they weighed.

> Any one know the full story?


phess@webkorner.com
Author:  James D. Hefner [ Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Disney 2-4-2Ts *PIC*
I didn't know these even existed. I did find the following picture of one on an Internet website.

Myself and other "park train" fans on this board would love to know more about them.

-James Hefner
x710

> According to Michael Broggie's wonderful
> book "Disney's Railroad Story,"
> the Fort Wilderness train was a
> "Folly."

> THe line ran 1973-1977. Four locomotives
> were built in 1973 was replica's of Bakdwin
> plantaion engines owned by other imagineers.

> They were "4/5ths" scale, operated
> on 30" ga track and designed for No. 2
> fuel oil.

> The small water anf fuel capacity was a
> problem all along.

> There were also frequent derailments from
> poor track engineering. Imagineer that?!?!

> :-)

> Rob Davis


Surviving World Steam Locomotives
Image
james1@pernet.net
Author:  scott [ Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Disney Scrap 2-4-2s?
I took my family to DisneyLAND a few years back. I know that one of the engines there is an old Baldwin and the others were built later. But these are all genuine steam, correct? What is the Disneyland gauge?


shawsinoly@aol.com
Author:  Hayes Smith Jr. [ Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Disney Scrap 2-4-2s?
> Is one of these engines in Eastern TN or W.
> North Carolina, thought I heard that.

Paul,

You're thinking of fmr. Opryland RR 2-4-4T # 2, otherwise known as Rachel. She is working for the East Tennessee and Western North Carolina RR, in the Doe River Gorge along the original Tweetsie trackbed in Hampton, and Pardee Point, in Tennessee.

Hayes Smith Jr.

nctrans.org
cookiemonster@rrmail.com
Author:  Paul Hess [ Tue Dec 18, 2001 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Hayes, you're right
> Paul,

> You're thinking of fmr. Opryland RR 2-4-4T #
> 2, otherwise known as Rachel. She is working
> for the East Tennessee and Western North
> Carolina RR, in the Doe River Gorge along
> the original Tweetsie trackbed in Hampton,
> and Pardee Point, in Tennessee.

> Hayes Smith Jr.

I knew it was some theme park engine they were using in the Doe River Gorge

phess@webkorner.com
Author:  Glenn Christensen [ Tue Dec 18, 2001 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Disney Scrap 2-4-2s?
Hi Rob,

> According to Michael Broggie's wonderful
> book "Disney's Railroad Story,"
> the Fort Wilderness train was a
> "Folly."

> THe line ran 1973-1977. Four locomotives
> were built in 1973 was replica's of Bakdwin
> plantaion engines owned by other imagineers.

In deference to Mr. Broggie, the 1977 date doesn't sound right. We stayed in one of the trailers at Ft. Wilderness over Christmas in 1979. I rode the Ft. Wilderness train then. I can be certain of that date because my wife was pregnant with our first son, who was born about 3 months later in February.

> There were also frequent derailments from
> poor track engineering.

I'm not surprised, those 4 wheel cars bounced and slatted around something fierce. But, there were no derailments on my trip and I had a great time regardless. I remember boarding at a trainshed a short walk from where they had the evening dinner festivities. The engine house was at the entrance end of the Ft. Wilderness Campground on the other extremity of the loop.

Both the engine and train were immaculate, but there were very few riders. I happened to catch the last train of the day - around 4:30 or 5:00 pm. I don't recall having to pay any fare - but my memory may be faulty on that point. I suspect the early hours of closure (the park stayed open much later) and the slim ridership may also have had something to do with Disney's decision to shutter the line.

As I write this, I suppose the park might have given the line one final try during the busy Christmas season. If so, I was fortunate indeed to come in at the tail end of a very short-lived revival.

Best Regards,
Glenn

> :-)

> Rob Davis


christenseng@altavista.com
Author:  Brian Norden [ Wed Dec 19, 2001 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Disneyland train
The operation was Disneyland in Anaheim is 36" gauge. Story was that like the Main Street buildings the train and its original passenger cars were scaled down in size. It ended up at almost 36" gauge so they went to that gauge.

The first two 4-4-0's (#1 & #2)were built new for the park. The design came indirectly from a Central Pacific design. Boilers were built by (now out of business) Dixon Boiler and the assembly work done at the Disney Studios. Similarly the riverboat hull was built by a commercial firm, the superstructure at the Studio and the boiler came from Dixon.

The #3 is a 2-4-4RT that was rebuilt from a 0-4-4RT that dated from 1894 and used until 1954 by Godchaux sugars, Disney got the engine in 1957 and rebuilt it that year.

The #4 is a 2-4-0 (based upon photo of D&RG "Montezuma") converted from a 0-4-0T built by BLW in 1925. This engine was acquired in 1958.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net
Author:  Scott Greig [ Wed Dec 19, 2001 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Disney Scrap 2-4-2s?
> Hi Rob,

> In deference to Mr. Broggie, the 1977 date
> doesn't sound right. We stayed in one of the
> trailers at Ft. Wilderness over Christmas in
> 1979. I rode the Ft. Wilderness train then.
> I can be certain of that date because my
> wife was pregnant with our first son, who
> was born about 3 months later in February.

I have to agree. My first trip to Disney World was sometime around 1979 or 1980 and I can recall taking a couple of rides on the Fort Wilderness train. I also remember going back there in subsequent years and seeing the overgrown and disconnected tracks, in some places paved over at crossings.



sbgreig_m1@yahoo.com
Author:  Rob Davis [ Wed Dec 19, 2001 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Carrolwood site and 1977
I have 1977 as the end date in other places. I was there in 1976 and it was running.

The Disney railroad buffs can be found at:

http://www.carolwood.com/

superc@monmouth.com
Author:  Richard [ Tue Dec 25, 2001 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Disney Scrap 2-4-2s?
What was the reasoning behind not operating these locomotives? Being fairly new construction, one would think they'd be an asset to a historical interpretation. Unless the locomotives are unsafe, worn-out, dangerously configured, I find it difficult to justify non-operation.


glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu
Author:  Bill Burns [ Wed Dec 26, 2001 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Disney Scrap 2-4-2s?
I would guess it has something to do with Disney not having control of the locomotives use after the sale, and not wanting it used and possibly misinterpreted as STILL being owned by them. It would still be associated in the public mind, perhaps, as being a Disney train, and Disney is zealous to guard the "integrity of their good name". What, for instance, harm could further operations of the train do to the Disney reputation if still operated after Disney no longer controls it? What if the boiler blew, and confused initial reports claim it as still being owned by Disney? Or, say, it gets operated at a nudist camp! Some passerby outside the camp might get a view of the thing passing by, and think "That's a Disney train - and at such a place!".

bilburns1313@ameritech.net
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