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Interesting article on WP&Y.
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Author:  jimwrinn [ Fri Dec 21, 2001 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Interesting article on WP&Y.
Some old news here, but still a few more details than before. Jim

No. 40 out, No. 69 coming back

By JEFF BRADY

The White Pass and Yukon Route is shipping steam engine No. 40 back to its home in Georgetown, Colo. after two summer seasons in the North. However, the railroad wonÂ’t be losing any steam power: WP&YR recently acquired one of its old engines, No. 69, from a museum in Nebraska.
No. 40 originally was leased for five years from the Georgetown railroad as a replacement for WP&YRÂ’s main steam performer, No. 73, while it underwent restoration, said company Vice President Gary Danielson. But the little engine did not work as well as expected.
“It became clear to us that No. 40 was not an engine to be used on the hill,” Danielson said. “We have reached an amicable end to the lease,” adding that it will leave Skagway by barge this week.
The Colorado engine arrived in June 2000 in time to be part of the railroadÂ’s centennial celebration a month later in Carcross, sharing the spotlight with No. 73. During that celebration, it was announced that the railroad would be returning to Carcross in 2001. No. 40 would have been an ideal engine for lakeside service on a Bennett-Carcross run, Danielson said, however that service was postponed indefinitely due to the need for extensive roadbed upgrades required by Transport Canada.
Last spring, No. 40 and No. 73 were used to push Rotary Plow No. 1 during snow removal operations on the pass – a three-steam photo opportunity that had not been seen since the 1950s. Then No. 73 went in the shops for its year-long rehab, and No. 40 was called on for regular steam duty. It performed well in 2001, but only after extensive modifications, Danielson said.
No. 40 had run on a five-mile-loop in Colorado, and was not used to the rigors of the White Pass.
“A lot of the things we had to do to her didn’t become noticeable till it did a long haul on the railroad,” Danielson said. “After the work was done, she ran great last summer, especially on the flat areas and would have been great for service along the lake.”
But with that service not expected until at least 2003, and No. 73 coming back on line next June to do the Saturday steam runs from Skagway to Bennett, that meant No. 40 really wasnÂ’t needed anymore.

Engine No. 69 as it looked when it ran on the White Pass & Yukon Route Railroad in the 1950s. Photo courtesy of local historian Carl Mulvihill.

No. 69 at the Stuhr Museum in Nebraska was traded back to WP&YR for four historically correct trucks. Photo courtesy of the Stuhr Museum.

In the meantime, the railroad had always been looking to bring back one of its own, Danielson said, and No. 69 became available from the Stuhr Museum in Grand Island, Nebraska.
“After some discussions, a deal was worked out with their board to acquire the engine for three sets of wooden trucks,” Danielson said.
Those historically correct trucks are hard to find, he added, and White Pass had 10 of them. The wooden trucks, which can be used on passenger or flat cars, were delivered last week by a Hamilton Construction lo-boy truck from Skagway. The lo-boy picked up the engine and moved it to Rader Rail Cars outside Denver, Colo. for storage.
“Whether or not we restore it to operating condition or cosmetically for display, at some point she will be coming back to Skagway,” Danielson said.
Skagway railroad historian Carl Mulvihill said No. 69 was the “most powerful” steam engine that operated on the railroad. The 2-8-0 Baldwin was built especially for the WP&YR and arrived in June 1908. At the time, it was “the largest narrow gauge steam engine ever built,” he added.
“It was primarily used for pushing, as a helper engine,” Mulvihill said. “They didn’t use it north of Bennett. It ran only in summertime, it was too wide for winter use.”
Like many of the older steam engines in its early fleet, No. 69 had an “outside frame” that made it wider and harder to operate in snow.
No. 69 ran on the WP&YR until its retirement in 1954. It was sold in 1956 to the Black Hills Central RR where it operated as “Klondike Casey.” It was acquired by the Nebraska Midland Railway in 1973, and by the Stuhr Museum of the Prairie Pioneer in 1975.
Mulvihill operated the engine on the museumÂ’s 1.5-mile track during a visit there in the 1980s. However, over the years it developed mechanical problems, and the museum ran out of money to properly restore it, Mulvihill said.
The museumÂ’s directors, in a July letter to the Grand Island Independent newspaper, estimated repairs to the boiler would cost a minimum of $370,000. It decided it could no longer run a steam train at the expense of other museum programs.
“The deaccessioning of locomotive 69 is part of a larger design,” the board wrote in the letter, which was posted on the museum’s Website. “The transfer of the locomotive to another organization is best not only for your Stuhr Museum, but also for engine 69. It is our desire that it receives continued care, be accessible to the public and return to Alaska. It is an extremely rare opportunity for the Stuhr to be able to return engine 69 to its home – to the organization that created its specifications and ordered it from the Baldwin factory in 1908.”



Wrinnbo@aol.com
Author:  Phil Johnson [ Thu Dec 27, 2001 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on WP&Y.
> Some old news here, but still a few more
> details than before. Jim

> No. 40 out, No. 69 coming back

> By JEFF BRADY

> The White Pass and Yukon Route is shipping
> steam engine No. 40 back to its home in
> Georgetown, Colo. after two summer seasons
> in the North. However, the railroad wonÂ’t be
> losing any steam power: WP&YR recently
> acquired one of its old engines, No. 69,
> from a museum in Nebraska.
> No. 40 originally was leased for five years
> from the Georgetown railroad as a
> replacement for WP&YRÂ’s main steam
> performer, No. 73, while it underwent
> restoration, said company Vice President
> Gary Danielson. But the little engine did
> not work as well as expected.
> “It became clear to us that No. 40 was not
> an engine to be used on the hill,” Danielson
> said. “We have reached an amicable end to
> the lease,” adding that it will leave
> Skagway by barge this week.
> The Colorado engine arrived in June 2000 in
> time to be part of the railroadÂ’s centennial
> celebration a month later in Carcross,
> sharing the spotlight with No. 73. During
> that celebration, it was announced that the
> railroad would be returning to Carcross in
> 2001. No. 40 would have been an ideal engine
> for lakeside service on a Bennett-Carcross
> run, Danielson said, however that service
> was postponed indefinitely due to the need
> for extensive roadbed upgrades required by
> Transport Canada.
> Last spring, No. 40 and No. 73 were used to
> push Rotary Plow No. 1 during snow removal
> operations on the pass – a three-steam photo
> opportunity that had not been seen since the
> 1950s. Then No. 73 went in the shops for its
> year-long rehab, and No. 40 was called on
> for regular steam duty. It performed well in
> 2001, but only after extensive
> modifications, Danielson said.
> No. 40 had run on a five-mile-loop in
> Colorado, and was not used to the rigors of
> the White Pass.
> “A lot of the things we had to do to her
> didnÂ’t become noticeable till it did a long
> haul on the railroad,” Danielson said.
> “After the work was done, she ran great last
> summer, especially on the flat areas and
> would have been great for service along the
> lake.”
> But with that service not expected until at
> least 2003, and No. 73 coming back on line
> next June to do the Saturday steam runs from
> Skagway to Bennett, that meant No. 40 really
> wasnÂ’t needed anymore.

> Engine No. 69 as it looked when it ran on
> the White Pass & Yukon Route Railroad in
> the 1950s. Photo courtesy of local historian
> Carl Mulvihill.

> No. 69 at the Stuhr Museum in Nebraska was
> traded back to WP&YR for four
> historically correct trucks. Photo courtesy
> of the Stuhr Museum.

> In the meantime, the railroad had always
> been looking to bring back one of its own,
> Danielson said, and No. 69 became available
> from the Stuhr Museum in Grand Island,
> Nebraska.
> “After some discussions, a deal was worked
> out with their board to acquire the engine
> for three sets of wooden trucks,” Danielson
> said.
> Those historically correct trucks are hard
> to find, he added, and White Pass had 10 of
> them. The wooden trucks, which can be used
> on passenger or flat cars, were delivered
> last week by a Hamilton Construction lo-boy
> truck from Skagway. The lo-boy picked up the
> engine and moved it to Rader Rail Cars
> outside Denver, Colo. for storage.
> “Whether or not we restore it to operating
> condition or cosmetically for display, at
> some point she will be coming back to
> Skagway,” Danielson said.
> Skagway railroad historian Carl Mulvihill
> said No. 69 was the “most powerful” steam
> engine that operated on the railroad. The
> 2-8-0 Baldwin was built especially for the
> WP&YR and arrived in June 1908. At the
> time, it was “the largest narrow gauge steam
> engine ever built,” he added.
> “It was primarily used for pushing, as a
> helper engine,” Mulvihill said. “They didn’t
> use it north of Bennett. It ran only in
> summertime, it was too wide for winter use.”
> Like many of the older steam engines in its
> early fleet, No. 69 had an “outside frame”
> that made it wider and harder to operate in
> snow.
> No. 69 ran on the WP&YR until its
> retirement in 1954. It was sold in 1956 to
> the Black Hills Central RR where it operated
> as “Klondike Casey.” It was acquired by the
> Nebraska Midland Railway in 1973, and by the
> Stuhr Museum of the Prairie Pioneer in 1975.
> Mulvihill operated the engine on the
> museumÂ’s 1.5-mile track during a visit there
> in the 1980s. However, over the years it
> developed mechanical problems, and the
> museum ran out of money to properly restore
> it, Mulvihill said.
> The museumÂ’s directors, in a July letter to
> the Grand Island Independent newspaper,
> estimated repairs to the boiler would cost a
> minimum of $370,000. It decided it could no
> longer run a steam train at the expense of
> other museum programs.
> “The deaccessioning of locomotive 69 is part
> of a larger design,” the board wrote in the
> letter, which was posted on the museumÂ’s
> Website. “The transfer of the locomotive to
> another organization is best not only for
> your Stuhr Museum, but also for engine 69.
> It is our desire that it receives continued
> care, be accessible to the public and return
> to Alaska. It is an extremely rare
> opportunity for the Stuhr to be able to
> return engine 69 to its home – to the
> organization that created its specifications
> and ordered it from the Baldwin factory in
> 1908.”

I feel a few clarifying comments should be made to the above article. As to the #40 not being an engine to be used on the hill, it was not because the White Pass folks didn't want it to. The territory the #40 was built to operate on was just as rigorous as the White Pass; the #40 could pull as many cars up White Pass as their #73. As to the "extensive modifications" that had to be made, there was nothing done to the engine that would be considered out of the ordinary to keep a steam locomotive operating on a railroad like that. It remains to be seen if steam really does return to the White Pass next season or any time soon.
As to the #69 needing "a minimum of $370,000" to repair the boiler - holy cow! Who told them that -a boiler repair contractor? You could build a whole new boiler that size for that amount of money. $370,000 should fix the entire engine very nicely.
The Loop is very happy to have the #40 back again. She is presently at the Colorado RR Museum in Golden where she will operate a couple of times next year before returning to Silver Plume in time for the 2002 season. It just seemed there was some exaggeration and misinformation in the article that needed to be addressed.

Phil Johnson

phil@georgetownloop.com
Author:  Paul D. [ Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on WP&Y.
Having had more than a little to do with the trade I can clear up some of the "exaggerations." First remember that the press is quite capible of confusing the facts.

The best estimate to return the locomotive to working order was $370K provided that much of the "code" boiler work form 1988 can be salvaged. The running gear on the engine is shot. the spring rigging was so loose that the flanges were wearing through the jacket. The engine need two new drive axles, new tires, at least three new driver boxes, a new set of shoes and wedges, and the pony truck conpletely rebuilt, and the list goes on. The boiler report is posted on the museum website for those desiring some interesting reading.

Yes folks the engine was rode hard and put away wet since it left the White Pass. Anyone familiar with Stuhr's pool table railroad can easily see that the engine is massive overkill to put 5-6 cars.

I think that the biggest problem with the 40 was that it's a deckless engine and not the most comfortable ride for the Bennet turn compaired to the 73. 69 is also a deckless so it will be interesting how it is recieved should it become operational.



http://www.stuhrmuseum.org
pfdx@aol.com
Author:  2-8-2mike [ Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  deckless engine?
> I think that the biggest problem with the 40
> was that it's a deckless engine and not the
> most comfortable ride for the Bennet turn
> compaired to the 73. 69 is also a deckless
> so it will be interesting how it is recieved
> should it become operational.

What is a "deckless engine"

Mike

mike211@yknet.ca
Author:  David M. Wilkins [ Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: deckless engine?
A deckless engine is one where the backhead of the boiler extends all of the way through the cab. The fireman has to stand on the gangway between the locomotive and tender to fire, which can be very uncomforbable. Also, the engineer has to enter his side of the cab through the back, often making direct communication with the fireman somewhat more difficult.

Notable operating examples of deckless locomotives are Strasburg's ex-N&W 4-8-0 #475 and the East Broad Top 2-8-2s.

Wasn't the construction of new "deckless" engines outlawed? Of course, such a requirement would have no effect on already-built locomotives.

david.wilkins@bardstown.com
Author:  Tom ARmstrong [ Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on WP&Y.
What about those three sets of wooden trucks. What kind of trucks are they? Where did they come from originally? Anyone got photos?

Some old news here, but still a few more
> details than before. Jim

> No. 40 out, No. 69 coming back

> By JEFF BRADY

> The White Pass and Yukon Route is shipping
> steam engine No. 40 back to its home in
> Georgetown, Colo. after two summer seasons
> in the North. However, the railroad wonÂ’t be
> losing any steam power: WP&YR recently
> acquired one of its old engines, No. 69,
> from a museum in Nebraska.

ncorailfan@juno.com
Author:  WOOLY [ Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on WP&Y.
> What about those three sets of wooden
> trucks. What kind of trucks are they? Where
> did they come from originally? Anyone got
> photos?

> Some old news here, but still a few more
The #69 came from Stuhr Museum in Grand Island Ne. They had quite a go around there about restoring it. The director of the museum & several others took a lot of heat when they got rid of it. I believe their were some resignations but not for sure. Do know the locomotive was in bad shape.

wooly421@charter.net
Author:  Andrew Durden [ Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: deckless engine?
Regarding the firing of deckless engines, I was about to say that it wouldn't matter on the White Pass since they burn oil. I got to thinking, though, where are the firing controls on an oil burning, deckless engine? Surely not on the backhead, but if they're on the side of the boiler, the fireman must be really cramped! Anyone know where the firing controls are on a deckless engine?

Southeastern Railway Museum
gapower97@yahoo.com
Author:  2-8-2mike [ Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: deckless engine?
> Regarding the firing of deckless engines, I
> was about to say that it wouldn't matter on
> the White Pass since they burn oil.

# 69 arrived at the WP&YR in 1908, and until 1950 it burned coal, so it probably did matter.

mike211@yknet.ca
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