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| An obvious candidate-and a quandry https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24254 |
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| Author: | superheater [ Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
It seems that the Sierra Railroad has their Baldwin S-12 fleet for sale. No. 42 is listed as "stored serviceable". The listed price is $75,000. Parts sources 40 & 44 are also listed for sale at $17k per. These units (especially #42) would seem to be extremely desireable for preservation. They seem significant because: 1.) Built by BLH at the end of the company's life, they represent the dying gasp of a company that was formed from the two weakest of the large scale steam legacy builders that failed to survive the competence destroying disruptive innovation of the diesel revolution. 2.) Despite the relative inferiority of Baldwin/Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton products, they did find a niche in switching and industrial applications. 3.) These unit survived long after the company was gone. Unlike most companies, Baldwin survived as manufacturer of parts and was even reorganized (by employees, I think) prior to final exit. The issues: 1.) Cost $75k for a 1200 HP switcher is good if its operable, unfortunately is 1200 HP that's going to be harder and harder to get parts for, so day in and day out use is probably not practical (unless you are SMS), and if you need something thats already been cannibalized off the parts mules, bummer. 2.) Friction bearings preclude interchange. So where do these old soldiers go? Sure hope they don't end up in the "too bad they weren't saved" files. http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/operationalbaldwinswitcher42.htm |
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| Author: | Stephen S. Syfrett [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
While $75k may not be bad in today's market for an operable 1200hp switcher (especially when you are seeing 800-1200hp EMD switchers asking $150k), I seriously doubt anyone will be willing to pay that much for a museum piece locomotive that would then have to trucked out. If the seller is willing to discount the selling price by an amount equal to the cost of making necessary field modifications to allow it to be moved on its own wheels, it might sell. I fear, however, that this will be one of many perfectly good locomotives that will wind up being scrapped in the future because most museums that would like to preserve them simply do not have the funding to buy a locomotive at that price and then move it. Some will survive, but many will probably become your "too bad they weren't saved" cases. As they say, all it takes is money... |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
I recall "shopping" these things around to potential buyers as long as six months ago. I get the feeling that even the California preservationists that want to see these saved have pretty much written them off as a lost cause in spite of the somewhat low price. |
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| Author: | mxdata [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
As Stephen said, this situation sounds like a parts source unless somebody can afford to bring in some replacement running gear and make the necessary changes on site to get the unit suitable for shipment, or do an on-site disassembly to get components down to weights and clearances where it could be taken out on several flatcars. MX |
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| Author: | David Farlow [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
We moved two friction bearing S-12's some 320 miles with about a $15,000 investment, it can be done without too much trouble... Couple of choices are available, first choice: rent / borrow some roller bearing AAR switcher idler trucks and swap them out for the move, swap them back in at the destination. You'll need a crane at each end to do the work. Second choice, buy some worn but legal roller bearing wheel sets and boxes from a switcher (Larry's Truck always has these, for too much money I might add). Buy a set of truck frames or take them from one of the parts units and build a set of idler trucks. Third choice: Follow the above purchase and then take out the friction bearing wheels and the motors with them, put it all back together on the other end. This is the highest labor method, but might save money. I think $75,000 is too much money for the engine in the first place... David Farlow, CMO Whitewater Valley Railroad |
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| Author: | Richard Glueck [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
All good suggestions. My thoughts would be the serviceable engine is priced as such because the owners do not wish to see it sold as scrap in the first place. The parts engines are a toos up. I'm guessing there is a range of negotiation that remains unspoken in this effort. Perhaps loading the one locomitve on a flatcar is the solution? I have no idea what the carriers would charge to move the engine. RDG 2100 was moved in that manner, and I'm sure it was at least as heavy. The parts locos should probably be gutted for whatever is worthwhile onsite, then committed to the nether worlds of scrap. Seeing a serviceable Baldwin Diesel scrapped today is a bit like seeing a serviceable steam loco scrapped during the 70's. It's a bit of an affront to the entire concept of railroad preservation. |
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| Author: | Randy Hees [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
Of course, one logical home would be at the California State Railroad Museum's Railtown 1897 complex in Jamestown. They passed through regularly when in use, and its on their home rails, so they would not have to be interchanged to get there. I have always found the Sierra's Oakdale engine house and related stuff amazing... it is a purpose built short line diesel shop, outfitted with the help of Baldwin to maintain these engines.... |
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| Author: | David Farlow [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
The Hagerstown Roundhouse Museum moved a Western Maryland VO 1000 (I think ?) on a flatcar from Spencer, this option is certainly a possibility. I think it will end up costing a bit more when you take into account the special car rental rate and availability and the need for multiple cranes. We used a heavy duty flat to move NYC 0-6-0 #6894. I'd probably still go with the idler trucks. Another option depending on what you are going to do with the engine and the budget involved is to convert it permanently to roller bearing wheelsets. David Farlow, CMO Whitewater Valley Railroad |
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| Author: | colfaxstation [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
What's wrong with friction? According to my contact at the FRA, who is the person that does the waivers, you can ship friction as long as the railroad is willing to handle it. And, they can be interchanged with a waiver. The PROBLEM is that the class 1's don't want the hassle and most folks have just assumed that friction bearings are not interchangeable. The other problem is equipment that shouldn't be shipped because its unsafe. Can't do anything but truck those. Call me at 715-225-0688 if you want particulars on the waiver route. Herb Sakalaucks Colfax Railroad Museum Located on the CN, who won't ship anything old. |
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| Author: | Brian Norden [ Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
Quote: Of course, one logical home would be at the California State Railroad Museum's Railtown 1897 complex in Jamestown.
Exactly! Do we know what is the position of the CSRM is regarding the unit? I bet it would be that it would accept a donation in a micro-second. But, again it is the cost of the acquisition. The CSRM cannot mint money. |
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| Author: | David Farlow [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
When we moved the two Baldwin / BLH engines from West Va. we did get a quote from NS to move them on their own wheels (friction bearings). They were speed restricted to 25mph and the quoted cost was something like $68 per mile (320 miles = $21,760) surcharge on top of the rate of $2,300 per locomotive and fuel surcharge. It could have been done, but obviously the price was considerably more than the alternatives. Does anyone know what it will cost to move the Ohio Central NKP Berk from Roanoke to Ohio? It doesn't appear to be on a special train. David Farlow, CMO Whitewater Valley Railroad |
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| Author: | dr dodge [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
Richard Glueck wrote: All good suggestions. My thoughts would be the serviceable engine is priced as such because the owners do not wish to see it sold as scrap in the first place. .
Too high a price will cause it not to be sold and scrapped if survival of the unit was the primary concern, the price should be free, BUT to a good home away from the torch dr |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
Quote: Does anyone know what it will cost to move the Ohio Central NKP Berk from Roanoke to Ohio? It doesn't appear to be on a special train.
It sure as hell is. One loco, one "gondola" (which is what they're calling those 108-ton bathtub hopper cars these days), the 763, and nine more hopper/gons, along with a private caboose? Sure sounds like a special movement to me. I should remind one and all that occasionally there are some serious pitfalls to moving stuff on its wheels. I remember that Montreal tried to ship some C&NW bilevels from Chicago as ordinary freight, and it resulted in a supposedly nasty derailment along the way. To this day, I think they're still arguing over whether the fault was the cars', CSX's, or the buyer who supposedly/allegedly refitted the cars for freight shipment. When you pay for a "special" rate, you're paying for special attention. You're paying for, among other things, the extra effort not to hump your car/loco, to put it at the front/rear of the train, and even--as I have had to do on two occasions--the right to have a big shouting match at 5:00 in the morning with the crew of the train as to whether your car is going to be attached to their train or not. For $68 a mile, however, I'd damn well better be shipping a Big Boy, or a full-sized coastal lighthouse. |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
Quote: if survival of the unit was the primary concern, the price should be free, BUT to a good home away from the torch
Last I heard, the Sierra Railroad was a private for-profit company. Survival is not the concern; money is. Obviously they believe selling the locos is in their best interest. Now, on the other hand, what *could* happen is that a sympathetic railroad *could* approach the Sierra and say, "Okay, here's my counteroffer: $30,000 for rights to all three, I strip the parts and you scrap one and pocket the money and donate the other to the CSRM for the write-off, while I squeeze another ten years out of the operable one and then donate that to CSRM in the end. Deal?" And even then, said railroad boss is going to earn the ire of the RR's mechanical department, unless they're masochists that like older locos. Anyone heard the scrap-metal value of a big switcher lately? <:-/ |
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| Author: | mxdata [ Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An obvious candidate-and a quandry |
Here is a locomotive being shipped as freight on a flatcar chained down with cribbing. It is a former Maine Central GP38 going to MPI in Boise. You can ship a locomotive this way if you can get enough weight out of it (trucks, prime mover, main generator, etc.) to meet the restrictions and load it so that it meets clearance requirements. If trucks and prime mover were being shipped (they were not in this case) they could be loads on additional flatcars. http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?20071 ... 126546.jpg MX |
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