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| Retrucking a ex PRR passenger car https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24292 |
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| Author: | clinch670 [ Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Retrucking a ex PRR passenger car |
I have this car that is ex PRR. The car has PRR riveted trucks. The trucks are the same that are on the PRR P53 coach at Strasburg. My question is how many here are faimilar with the PRR enough to shed some light on what may work. I was thinking of retrucking this car with a set of PRR B60b baggage car trucks. They are of similar design. Does anyone know if the center plates are the same? Attached is a photo showing the car. http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 476&nseq=0 Thanks clinch670 |
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| Author: | Howard P. [ Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Retrucking a ex PRR passenger car |
Why do you want to retruck the car? Is there something wrong with the original trucks? It looks like a rather interesting car; a short ex-PRR car with smooth sides and a round roof, and last owned by Clinchfield-- what's the car's story? Howard P. |
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| Author: | clinch670 [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Retrucking a ex PRR passenger car |
The car is the ex Clinchfield Instruction Car. Despite what it looks like it is in rather soild shape. It has to be retrucked so that I can move it. Loading it onto a flat is out of the question. I have already been round and round with that. The trucks are friction bearing and I believe that new wheel sets would just be to much work and expense. I was wondering if these old PRR trucks are worth saving? -clinch670 |
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| Author: | Mr. Ed [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Retrucking a ex PRR passenger car |
Anything old is worth saving if only for historic value. They might be needed for a static display somewhere that would be historically correct. Later! Mr. Ed |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Retrucking a ex PRR passenger car |
Sure, and can we store it in your backyard until such time as we need it? Thanks! <;-) |
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| Author: | thirdrail [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Retrucking a ex PRR passenger car |
The website shown lists diagrams, with dimensions and drawings, for all PRR passenger car trucks. http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiag ... &sz=sm&fr= I cannot tell what your car has, but most B60b's had type 2D5P trucks. Check the dimemsions and particularly the journal sizes to see if the baggage car trucks can be substituted. I assume these are already equipped with roller bearings. |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Answers & Questions from the PRR foamers--er, experts |
Below you'll find some questions from the PRR fanatics at PRR-FAX, a PRR-themed Yahoo Group: "What precisely is the pre-Clinchfield history? What the heck kind of PRR car was this car? My initial reaction was to think that it might be an ex-N&W car. However, looking at the car, there is the possibility that this was, once upon a time a B60 (not B60B) and it has been very heavily modified (vestibules, windows etc). The bottom of the side sheets appear to be the same height above the rail as the car behind it, ruling out B60B heritage. I would be very curious to know the side sheet pattern." >The car has PRR riveted trucks. The > trucks are the same that are on the PRR P53 coach at Strasburg. "These are "built up" trucks, most likely 2C-P2 or 2C-P3 as far as I can tell from the photos. Are the trucks confirmed to be PRR (ie do they have a PRR foundry mark?)" > The car is the ex Clinchfield Instruction Car. Despite what it looks like > it is in rather solid shape. It has to be retrucked so that I can move it. > Loading it onto a flat is out of the question. I have already been round > and round with that. The trucks are friction bearing "The preferred historical term is "solid bearings" <VBG> The term "friction bearing" trucks was invented by Timken to sell roller bearings." > and I believe that > new wheel sets would just be to much work and expense. I was wondering if > these old PRR trucks are worth saving? " "Absolutely, and unequivocal yes. Of course., you haven't stated the purpose of the renovation. If it is historical accuracy, these built up trucks may well be the only ones this car ever wore. To throw them aside would make historical conservation impossible. If your purpose is a car that you can ride behind Amtrak, obviously, you'll need something more acceptable... but the historical truck should be saved for the day that the car is retired." Now, I join the others in asking: Exactly how do you know it's PRR, and what are your plans/intentions with it? Part of me says this looks like it could have been a "baby" business car, the kind you'd see on a model railroad (father of "Piker and Oscar", maybe?). The PRR did have division-superintendent cars, class Z-62, of which one that I know off the top of my head survived in the Ohio Railway Museum mystery collection (PRR 7504 or 7530 Williamsport), but the Z62 is more modern than that Clinchfield...... well, I'm inclined to call it a practical-joke "kitbash" if it is indeed PRR........ |
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| Author: | clinch670 [ Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Answers & Questions from the PRR foamers--er, expert |
Let me begin by saying that this car was orginally PRR. I know this because I have done plenty of research on this car. I am a huge Clinchfield fan and I own this car. Second, the history of this car is that it was aquired by the CRR in 1953. The car was totally and completely rebuilt in Erwin TN by the CRR. This rules out trying to determine the PRR heritage since the side sheets are all shop built. The Clinchfield show it as being a combination mail/baggage car from the PRR. I said B60 or B60b because the dimensions match. To fully determine the type car will be next to impossible since very little orginal parts survived. Besides I don't care the exact class car as I am not huge Penny fan. However, the car does a clerestory roof under the round roof. The orginal wood floor is still in the car underneath the floor the CRR put in it. The trucks are 100% PRR. They are PRR 2D5P1 trucks. I haven't looked for a foundry mark as I am not that intrested. I am restoring this car back to servicable condition and it will not be going back on these trucks. And yes I have been on and around the RR my whole life and I know the historical term may be "soild bearing" but we call them friction bearings on the RR. Here are the trucks from the website above. Thanks thirdrail now I know exactly what size journals they have. http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiag ... &sz=sm&fr= I have pics of the trucks up close to compare. -clinch670 |
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| Author: | S. Weaver [ Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Answers & Questions from the PRR foamers--er, expert |
Please don't get offended, because we're still curious and trying to be helpful: What kind of "service"? Those trucks, rebuilt, are sixty mph trucks. If going over-the-road, are you going to be on regionals or Amtrak? The answer to that question may give you very different answers. If you're just going to move it by rail in interchange, a set of dime-a-dozen 70T freight trucks with a side bearing rig might do fine. If plain bearings are not an option for you (and believe me, I understand at $5,500 per wheelset for plain bearings), have you considered a roller bearing conversion? It seems like somewhere someone told you that riveted trucks are the problem. What was their authority and what did they tell you? |
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| Author: | clinch670 [ Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Answers & Questions from the PRR foamers--er, expert |
I am not offended at all, and I am open to any help or advice recieved. The fact that the trucks are riveted isn't the problem at all. I would love to rewheel the car with a set of rotating end cap journals. However, the two problems I see are. One, there is a spring that sits on top of the journal box (similar to the Pullman 242 truck) and I am not sure how if at all an adapter plate could be made to work. Maybe there is a way but it may be to much work and very costly. Second the journals are 5 1/2 x11. Don't think I will be finding a set of those. I love the fact that this car sits on such an odd and historical truck. However, I am moving this car on live rail and it will be converted and restored to a lounge/bar car. I want the car to be able to move freely on the railroad so that I can move it without having to worry about loading it on a flat. I have a flat in place to load the car on the problem is Hulcher doesn't want to load it and if the do it is going to run me about $12000. It won't be Amtrak compliant, but will be on a shortline. Let me ask you Pennsy guys a question. There was a PRR B60 baggage car on ebay a few months back. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :IT&ih=011. This car rides on a modified or updated version of the trucks under my car. Will these not work? Axle center on my trucks are 7' and I believe the ones under the B60 was 8'. From all I have read and researched it looks like this would be my best bet and still keeping the car on Pennsy trucks. |
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| Author: | Alan Maples [ Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Answers & Questions from the PRR foamers--er, expert |
I will preface by saying I am no expert on the subject of passenger car trucks, however I've been told to proceed with caution whenever contemplating a truck swap on passenger equipment. Bowl sizes, side bearing arrangements, brake gear and springing are are all areas of potential trouble. Even the Standard Railroad of the World was sometimes not so standard. You have an interesting car and I sympathize with your problem. Having bought my share of big awkward items over the years, I'm always confronted with "now what?" when it comes to transportation. I've seen more than one passenger car with roller bearings accepted for movement on its own wheels, only to come to grief, usually following an inadvertant trip through a hump yard. I've done the coach-on-a-flat-car route, which the railroad likes better and which worked fine but wasn't cheap. We had Hulcher look at the job but they were high dollar and not sure how to approach it. I ended up hiring a local crane man and getting an RJ Corman crew to do the rigging and tie down. I should have just contracted the whole job to Corman; they were pretty reasonable but the crane people managed to turn a 20 minute lift into a nine hour day. Good luck with your project. Alan Maples |
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| Author: | S. Weaver [ Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Answers & Questions from the PRR foamers--er, expert |
What shape are the current plain-bearing wheelsets? If they are within Part 215 specs and the journals are not "frosted", the car can roll. You can get permission for anything to move on live rail, provided you jump through the proper hoops. Then, for periodic movement on the shortline, plain-bearing movement should not be a problem. An adaptation to roller bearing would not be as difficult as you may think, in spite of the pedestal equalizer spring. Depending on the journal loading, you may get away with a 5 x 9 roller bearing conversion. Though I suspect you would have to go with 5.5 x 10. An adapter that even looks like the current journal box would not be that difficult to fab up. Keep us posted ... |
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