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Big Boys, GG1's and 4-4-4-4's
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Author:  SteveRG [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Big Boys, GG1's and 4-4-4-4's
I had heard a while back that someone was going to dieselize a GG1 somewhere. Does this statement still hold true and where and when can the public see it?

Secondly and even longer ago, (did that make any sense?) I read somewhere that Steve Lee of UP Steam wanted to revive a 4-8-8-4. Did this idea ever come to fruition?

Lastly I heard a looooooooooooooooooong time ago from a totally unreliable source, (but I have to ask now that I am here; someone has to know) supposedly there is a totally restored PRR T-1 in operating condition sitting outside Altoona somewhere. Now this I know HAS to be false, but just checking. Am I right on this one?
Author:  Stationary Steam [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Big Boys, GG1's and 4-4-4-4's
You've entered the Twilight Zone of railroading!

(Actually that T1 does exist. Its in a secluded steel mill building coupled up to a NYC Hudson. Honest Injun. Saw it myself! ) :)
Author:  Erik Ledbetter [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Big Boys, GG1's and 4-4-4-4's
On question 2: I have never asked Steve Lee this exact question, so I do not KNOW this from his own lips. But Steve has generously taken the time to help me understand his job by letting me interview him. In light of those conversations, I do not believe that Steve and Union Pacific have ever had the slightest intention of trying to revive a Big Boy.

The UP steam program exists to serve UP's corporate purposes--as a tool for building relationships with shippers, communities, political stakeholders, law enforcement, investors, the press, etc. To serve this purpose the locomotives must be able to operate smoothly across the bulk of the UP system. Steve would be the first to tell you this--he never forgets it for an instant. His job is to get his heritage trains across the system with maximum efficiency and minimum disruption to the orderly flow of UP revenue trains.

A Big Boy would just be an albatross around his neck, simply because there is almost nowhere left on the UP system where it can be turned. Even in its revenue-earning heyday it was confined to specific parts of the system where turntables and wyes had been modified to handle its extraordinary length and turning radius requirements. Since its retirement most of those facilities have been removed.

It is unimaginable to me that a professional like Steve would ever have had the slightest interest in spending Uncle Pete's good money on a machine that would be a debacle for him to try to actually move around the system.

Question 3: No, there is no surviving T-1. All 52 were scrapped.
Author:  jasonsobczynski [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Big Boys, GG1's and 4-4-4-4's
Regarding the big boy, Lee ststed(around the time of the Big Boy movie scare of the late 90's) that in addition to the turning issues, signals have been moved closer to track centerlines as well as second mains/sidings. Because of the immense overhang of the front end it would be a logistical nightmare to get one anywhere on the up system.
Author:  Scott Kwiatkowski [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Big Boys, GG1's and 4-4-4-4's
FISH ON!

Heres's a link to the GG1 dielesization project.

http://www.prrllc.com/GG1.html

Scott Kwiatkowski
Flim Flam, New Jersey

Howard P. did I get it right this time?
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Big Boys, GG1's and 4-4-4-4's
Okay, here are the dead serious answers:

NO

#*$&, NO

and HELL, NO.

Scott K, please stop giving ammunition to the rumor-mongers, even if the wounds will be mostly self-inflicted.

FYI, SteveRG, if you search this forum for posts around April 1 of any year, you'll see posts of the same generally dubious-at-best-and-fraudulent-at-worst nature. Observe the dates carefully.
Author:  Dave [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  legendary lost locomotives
Legendary locomotives:

PS4 frame at Spencer - not there.
Glover 2-6-2 frame in NC - not there.
Ghost Shay, Slaty Switchback on Graybeard Mountain - unknown.
Swamp Shay, Rimini, SC - it's there.
Heisler in Kentucky shed - it's there.
4-4-0 under road construction in NC - reputedly there, who knows?
Glover tender in Great Dismal Swamp - probably long gone.
Mystery logging engine near Stovall, NC - who knows?

Just the localish ones I know something about.

dave
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Big Boys, GG1's and 4-4-4-4's
Actually, let me see if I can post these questions in the form in which we usually see them, and then they'll look more familiar:

"I herd a wile back that somone was going to deezelise a PRR GG1 somewere. Is this true if so this wuld be SO AWSUME!!!!!!! Were r they gonna do this and where can i help? I never saw a GG1 running and it's my lifes goal to see one!!!!!! PRR ROCKZ!!!!!!!!!!"


"I just read somewhere on some website that Steve Lee of UP Steam wanted to revive a 4-8-8-4. Did this ever happen?? Did they mean a Union Pacific 4-8-8-4 or some other 4-8-8-4? I saw pictures where they revived a Clinchfield 4-6-6-4 and he was involved, so it just could happen, right?"

"I heard a looooooooooooooooooong time ago from a guy who used to work with the PRR in Altoona, supposedly there is a totally restored PRR T-1 in operating condition sitting outside Altoona somewhere. They supposedly hid it in an old tunnel to keep it for a museum, and then some guy who owned a mine bought it to switch cars and then kept it hidden away in a mine near Ebensburg. Supposedly it's at what was Cambria Mines #33 and is still there. Anyone know?"

[bonus points if you know what now-preserved loco really WAS at Cambria Mine #33 near Ebensburg!]
Author:  Rob Gardner [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legendary lost locomotives
Dave,

I've actually been told a rumor personally, by someone I should better than to trust, but it's not so far away from that I wouldn't make at least one expedition to try and substantiate it.

Supposedly, a guy that I know in the Akron, Ohio area has relatives who live along the Ohio River somewhere between Parkersburg, WV and, say, Point Pleasant, almost to Huntington. He claims that this part of the family had a coal mine with its own little RR that ran south from the ex B&O line that runs up the Ohio from Huntington to Parkersburg and beyond. Supposedly they still have an ex B&O 4-6-0 that hauled the coal from the mine to the mainline. I can't remember if he said it's sitting in the woods on a short remaining section of track or that it's in a shed somewhere on their property. He tells the story with all sincerity, like he really believes it's true, and even claims to have seen the engine himself. However, when I would press him for details, he can't seem to provide the specifics as to what town it's near or the name of the coal mine, etc. Pretty neat story, huh?

The story sounds a lot like the ex Preston RR 2-8-0's that spent so many years on that property in SW Pennsylvania. Huh, makes me wonder a bit........

Now watch someone go prove it true now that I've retold it and laughed it off like Sasquatch and the Loch Ness Monster!

This same gentleman swears that there's a 15" gauge RR near Negley, Ohio, within sight of the old Y&S's Smithfield branch. I must have spent a good 30 to 45 minutes one afternoon driving around the area as he told me with no success.

Rob Gardner
Author:  Rob Gardner [ Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Big Boys, GG1's and 4-4-4-4's
Sandy,

Is that engine steam or diesel? Give me just one clue as I have none to go on right now.

Rob Gardner
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Cambria Mine #33
Diesel.......
Author:  Les Beckman [ Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: legendary lost locomotives
Dave wrote:
Legendary locomotives:

PS4 frame at Spencer - not there.
Glover 2-6-2 frame in NC - not there.
Ghost Shay, Slaty Switchback on Graybeard Mountain - unknown.
Swamp Shay, Rimini, SC - it's there.
Heisler in Kentucky shed - it's there.
4-4-0 under road construction in NC - reputedly there, who knows?
Glover tender in Great Dismal Swamp - probably long gone.
Mystery logging engine near Stovall, NC - who knows?

Just the localish ones I know something about.

dave


Dave -

Some time ago, we were discussing rumors of equipment on the Monon Railroad Historical-Technical Society discussion website. One that came up that I found interesting was a Milwaukee Road steam engine in the Wabash River near the power plant just north of Terre Haute, Indiana. Supposedly this locomotive was left there as the Division was nearly dieselized and the railroad determined it would cost more to raise the locomotive than it was worth in scrap value. Since the engine wasn't Monon, no one followed up on the story, but I still wonder if it has any bit of truth to it.

Les
Author:  davew833 [ Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: legendary lost locomotives
I wouldn't mind seeing a dieselized GG1 given that quite a few of the type are preserved, but I think it would be a huge amount of work to rip out the guts and replace them with diesel innards, while simultaneously bringing the frame, carbody, and running gear up to safe operating standards. Many of the GG1's were retired 20+ years ago because of cracks in the frames, and they aren't getting any younger!
Author:  Randy Musselman [ Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Big Boys, GG1's and 4-4-4-4's
Hello,

To explore the realm of pure fantasy or "what-ifs", dieselizing a GG1 would allow it to be taken to the masses but having it diesel powered and at worse not under real operating wires would take it out of its element. I see this on the same plain as having a steam engine shell with diesel power inside. It’s an outright adulteration and it sends a counterproductive message to the general public which has very little knowledge of the subject. (.......strictly my opinion here.)

The very appearance of catenary wires and rows of those tall structural steel poles paints an important historic picture. The GG1 was part of that picture. Catenary and infrastructure were an integral part of what made the GG1 successful just like track pans made the New York Central Niagara steam locomotive successful.

Stand alone restorations are challenging alone but creating a historic infrastructure is much more involved and expensive.

If this was even close to being a proposal, perhaps the following could be considered:

1. Restore a GG1 and convert its propulsion system to modern electric locomotive technology. I don't know if the overhead voltage has changed on the Corridor or the Keystone Service to Harrisburg but it may be 25 kV, correct? Install AC variable frequency drives, new transformers and switchgear.
2. Go Green - Take the restoration one step further and install regenerative braking via hybrid technology (with batteries) or back feeding power to the catenary. You may be able to get renewable energy credits for adding this feature.
3. Under the Wires - Perhaps operating a GG1 retro on the Keystone line would be ideal? It would not be buried in the hot and heavy action of the Corridor but would have short 1-1.25 hour runs to minimize risk. Subcontract to Amtrak and use it in daily service. Run it right up to the 100-110 MPH limit on the line. This line would be historically relevant to the GG1.
4. Bidirectional - The beauty of the GG1 is that turning is a non-issue. If Amtrak would ever deactivate the wires from Harrisburg to Philly, reinstall the wires from Lancaster to Columbia, PA. This line is still used and is in excellent condition, catenary poles in place. I presume NS owns it but it would be short enough to groom as an electric heritage line.

Oh yes, the GG1 has massive cast steel frames and large spoked drive wheels with, I presume steam locomotive type tires. No matter how you look at it, it comes down to one common denominator....cash.

Unfortunately as we depart from the WWII era, the pinnacle period of rail transport in America, and that generation passes away, it will be increasingly difficult to get the general public's attention when you are competing with over saturation of high tech stimulation that we are bombarded with every day. Unless a historic restoration is fully relevant and first class commanding more than a quick look, how do you get even close to getting off the ground? The public may be ignorant but not stupid and should not be insulted. If you get their attention and they want to learn about the GG1, finding a diesel engine under the shell would not go over well. Keep in mind, the entire US public has been moved away from rail to automotive transport with all the amenities and independence it provides. You need to get their attention and convince them to get back to rail and that it is not only socially responsible (lower the carbon footprint) but also stylish and progressive.

........fantasy soap box speech over.

Cheers,

Randy Musselman
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Big Boys, GG1's and 4-4-4-4's
Quote:
On question 2: I have never asked Steve Lee this exact question, so I do not KNOW this from his own lips. But Steve has generously taken the time to help me understand his job by letting me interview him. In light of those conversations, I do believe that Steve and Union Pacific have ever had the slightest intention of trying to revive a Big Boy.


Erik,

Pray tell, don't you mean "I do NOT believe that....."?

(Please stay the heck away from the Ten Commandments.......)
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