I was reading about the speed record runs for steam engines, and I got to wondering about the location for where "Mallard" broke the speed record in 1938. Is Stoke Bank still an active line and if so, is there any plaque or marker for the run? I know next to nothing about British Railways, so forgive my ignorance about the subject.
Also, I got to talking with a co-worker on the speed records. I know that the run of Mallard on Stoke Bank was downhill and therefore subject to controversy as the Germans made their run two years before on a level track. It seems to me that as these record attempts were made in the days before superpower, that this "all time" record could be broken with a few engines today. It's suggested that Mallard's record had been broken in the US more than once but people were scared to say so publicly. Couldn't a currently operating locomotive break this record today? Yes, I know you'd put the machine into serious peril mechanically to do so, but has anyone really looked into breaking this record?

Stoke Bank remains in service, just south of Grantham on the former LNER East Coast Main Line between London and Edinburgh. Barring any minor modifications made during electrification, that same permanent way is still in service today.

Remember that "Super Power" locomotives were always compromising between potential speed and potential power. I would dare to say that the only serious contenders of the surviving steam locomotives worldwide for attempting a new speed record, casting aside all concern for age/condition/etc. (and believe me, I've crunched numbers just out of curiosity) might be one of the Chapelon locomotives or a German steamer. Another distinct possibility, that someone wouold be willing to push that hard: The A1 "Tornado" Pacfic now under construction in Britain. Even PRR 4-4-2 "7002"/8063 now has smaller drivers than the 7002 that allegedly hit 127 mph on its speed run. Of course, with modern GPS and electronic speed recording capability, any question of whether the speed would be "authentic" would be moot!

As but one example, a N&W J was alleged to have reached 110 mph on one test run outside of M&W turf, I think on the PRR in Ohio. If that loco had had 80-inch drivers like many 4-8-4's (say, C&O 614, I think), and produced the same axle RPM, that would have equaled 125 mph. But if the loco had had 80-inch drivers, it might not have been able to produce enough steam for that speed. You can't win.

I think it worthy of note that Mallard's train during that 1938 record run was all of 240 tons (British long tons, but still....). That's a joke by modern U.S. standards. If you see the videos of the various French/German/Japanese record runs, you'll see that they set their records with equivalent "overpowering"--two locos and two cars, in the case of the latest French record.

As far as I know, there's no marker on Stoke Bank for the record site; the location is just a bit rural, and it would be hard to see it roaring past at 125 mph!

I had the distinct honor of working with the late Dante Porta in preparing C&O 614 for the ACE test runs in 1985. He said that with some modest reworking of her valves and the addition of some partial streamlining that the 614 could beat the record on level track with a 6 coach (420 tons) train.
Having had the privilege of running her a good many miles at or near to track speed (79mph) I must confess that I'm not sure I'd have the you know whats to run her at 130!!!!
Guess I needn't worry--it ain't likely to happen!!! But then again who knows????
Might be fun!!! Ross Rowland

I recall a legend that Bill Purdie got SP 4449 going fairly fast (90?) on the Charlottesville-Washington main with the SR excursion train during its ferry move north to meet AFT in Washington. As the story goes, Bill said "I've never run that fast on an engine unless something was wrong".

Wesley

Among currently operating American locomotives UP 844 would certainly be a contender. It frequently ran at speeds in excess of 100 mph in regular service and there are those persistent rumors that it has seen the 120+ mph range a time or three...............
Never happen of course, but wouldn't that be something to see?
J

Wes,

I was on that trip. I was in the vestibule when someone with a stop watch said we were doing 90. I do know we were leaving the cars on Route 29 in the dust. But the report published in Trains magazine several months later said that according to the dynamometer car, the top speed attained was 79.

I wish I could do it again. I can't believe that 31 years have gone that fast!

Kevin

I heard from 4449 sources that the quote was

"I've never run that fast on an engine without something going wrong".

But as was pointed out this was many years ago and I know that my mind couldn't be affected by old age, Ha!

Thanks for the correction on the quote.

If there was a high watermark to the era of railroad-sponsored mainline steam, I think that trip may well be it. I was not present for the SP 4449 trip, but a trip riding with CPR 2839 on the head end over the same territory got the point across.

Wesley

I worked as part of the train crew on that trip. Jim Bistline promoted it as "ride the 4449 for $44.49" (one way, Atlanta to Alexandria) Track speed for passenger trains then on the SR mainline was 79 mph. It was hit a number of times. I remember hanging out of the baggage door on the "Queen & Crescent Club" commissary car, yakking with an ex-N&W guy named McCormack, who was taking a break from the head-end. Doyle and I both had a lot more hair then.

Thanks for the info, Ross, 614 was actually the engine I was thinking of when I wondered if someone in the US could make a run for the record. I'm sure if really pushed, a couple of engines in the US could do it. The question is, would someone risk doing it. Even a greater question, would any railroad let someone try it on their line? I'm thinking the UP would be a great place, maybe the downhill grades in Wyoming? I know UP would never try to take 844 above track speeds, nor could I blame them. Several extinct classes of US locomotives had the potential, including Milwaukee Road's A and F series engines. There has long been a rumor that the PRR S-1 Duplex got up to 140, but that has never been verified.
But for a real shot at the record, the current horse to bet on would German semi-streamlined Pacific number 18-201, which has run over 100 on a few occasions and can be steamed today. In 1972, it's reported that it got up to 113. http://www.germansteam.co.uk/FastestLoc ... html#these
I guess there will always be a debate over if Mallard really was faster than the run made by German streamlined Hudson # 05-002 before. It has also been contended that as the German engine's runs were made on level track (uphill in some spots) and the locomotive did not suffer breakdowns after these runs (Mallard suffered substantial mechanical issues right after reaching it's top speed on Stoke Bank), that perhaps it was actually faster. The actual speed attained by Mallard has long been in question as well as no dynamometer car was along for that run.

As for Bill Purdie getting 4449 up to high speeds, that is talked about in Jim Wrinn's book on the SRR/NS steam program.

I rode in the mid-train open car on the 4449 trip. Several people were clocking mileposts at speed. Fastest time per mile was about 45 seconds, or 80 mph, for those of you in Rio Lindo. The 4449 had impressive power stretching the train climbing out of sags in the roller coaster SR right of way.

In March 1979 I paced the 2839 at 79 mph south of Charlottesville during her ferry move to Birmingham. The footage I shot shows she ran smoothly and quietly at that speed, with no discernable hunting on the track, such that her 100 mph operating speed rating was a credible number.

Bruce Manwiller

Wrong. The reason that Mallard's 1938 record is generally regarded as authentic (see the Guinness Book of World Records and other sources) is solely because it actually DID have a dynamometer car, unlike all the American claimants. It's all the American claims that are in question because they lacked dynamometer cars. I just checked no less than five LNER histories to confirm this; if I can find the right book, I can come up with the number of the dynamometer car, the graph reproduction, and analysis of the record run. Jim Armstrong's "LNER Locomotive Development" (1974) says the record run of July 3rd, 1938 had six of the new "Coronation" coaches plus the dynamometer car for a total of 240 tonnes, and hit 126 mph at milepost 90, ten miles from Stoke summit, south of Little Bytham.

Strange, the guy who wrote the book I just looked at must have had it backwards. Oh well, just goes to show you can't trust everything you read!
Still, the downhill run on Stoke Bank caused overheating and other issues and the engine had to run light back to Doncaster for repairs. Supposedly, the 05-002 made the same speed on level track, but without a dynamometer car on that run, we'll never know for sure. I guess with war clouds on the horizon, Germany had other things to prove other than who's steam engines were fastest...
The odd thing is that I've read some stuff since on the A4's, and many on England contend that making those speeds today would be even easier now than it was then due to the condition of many of the preserved Gresley pacifics. That may be, but I can't imagine anyone taking one up that hill for another go at the record...

I was privileged to ride that trip with 4449, riding from Salisbury NC to Alexandria VA with the Claytor family on the Claytor Lake, which was on the head end of the train (platform forward).

This train had been repeatedly stopped for a number of hotbox detectors, with a defect indication on the trailing truck of 4449, which, in each case was found to be caused by radiation from 4449's firebox. In addition, there was a problem with a latch securing a hinged door in the skirt on the left side of 4449, which swung open across the adjacent main track, requiring additional stops to secure.

At Charlottesville, with this train running very late (and with Washington connections for the excursionists in jeopardy that evening), a conference was held and the decision was made to recover time to Alexandria. This decision was made by, or with the approval of, the highest authority of the Southern.

The "official" report, I am sure, says "79 MPH".

The Claytor Lake, as I recall, then had one of the early digital speed indicators in its lounge.

Our maximum speed was 89.6 MPH. This was a trip no one could ever forget!!

I trust WGC III would not object to this disclosure.

As to the others, I hope they wouldn't mind - but I'll take care to avoid lightning hazards for the next day or so...

There is one big reason such an event is not going to happen in the US and that reason is called the FRA. Unless I am mistaken, only the NEC is certified for speeds over 100 MPH with standard equipment in the US. None of the western railroads are in any position to run a train at those speeds and are not going to go through the hoops necessary to raise their track speeds. They are to busy running freight trains that do not like those sort of track conditions. The NEC is to busy and important to fool with such an event. It will not happen in the US anytime soon no matter what engine you want to use.

John Bohon