The 1905 CV coach and wooden boxcar listed at Ozark for a long time are marked as sold. Anyone know where they are headed?

http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/cvcoach.htm

http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/cvboxcar.htm

That coach is a heck of a piece. I hope it is headed for a full restoration.

Rob Davis

The boxcar was removed to a new owner down south, I forget where exactly (for some reason North Carolina sounds right). It happened just under a month ago.

The CV382, we tried to rescue, but could not come up with the needed cash to move her (estimated $25-30,000 for the 2 cranes for both locations, depressed center flat car and transportation by the local freight RRs). Not sure what her future will be. The biggest problem in moving her was that she was on the wrong side of the Northeast Corridor and Amtrak is very nervous about non-standard loads going under the wires.

I hope she gets saved, since she may be the last wooden CV coach left. She was built in 1905 by American Car & Foundry as part of a 4 coach order. IIRC she may still have her original plated wooden 6 wheel trucks.

Rich Cizik
MoW Foreman
Blacksmith Shop Co-Head
Ct Eastern RR Museum
Willimantic, Ct 06226
www.cteastrrmuseum.org

Some one bought this one and I can't give away a 1905 A.C.F. built wood coach trucks and all.

I beleive the CV coach is still available, any interested parties should contact Ozark Mountain Railcar

Trust me, Jack, if the money was out there to move this stuff, not only the coach you're trying to give away, but many other pieces would be rapidly moving to new homes for restoration. As someone told me a long time ago, the cost of acquisition is the least expensive part of owning a piece of railroad equipment. I expect that, when its all done, about 1/3 of the total expense of restoring (exterior only) the Georgia Northern combine Thronateeska obtained from MOT will be in transporting it from St. Louis to Savannah for restoration, then to Albany, GA for exhibition. (The final move to Albany should take place sometime in 2008. Excellent progress so far, with most of the right side wall structure from the vestibule to the baggage door having been replaced with new materials, out of necessity.)

I've noticed that CV coach listing on OMR for several years and thought what a nice addition it would make to somebody's collection. When you think about places like Mid-Continent and Strasburg where rebuilding wood-bodied cars into serviceable rolling stock is almost commonplace, makes you wonder why cars like yours aren't snapped up quickly. There are several other cars available on the OMR web site that would make nice excursion train cars for someone, but then, it all comes back to money, doesn't it?

Sure wish I could win that lottery...

I just don't know how I'm gonna muster the power, nerve, courage or guts to actually start to destroy the car. How does one do that?

I'm sure there are many here who wish they had a good answer for that question. I can certainly empathize with you.

Have you posted it on RailSwap? I'm guessing you have contacted as many museum groups as you might think would be interested about the coach. Well, really, I suppose most any museum that would be big enough to take on a restoration project like that would have a member who frequents RYPN that could take the "find" to the museum decision makers. I know I've done that with several pieces, and three have been rescued as a result. A regular poster here, Tom Cornille, tried to establish a web site for available historic equipment to be posted for acquisition and preservation by a new owner. It was nice while he could maintain it, but the site has now been taken down.

I've had to make some decisions lately I had hoped to avoid, but sometimes it happens. I've had to give up on a HW coach, a pair of CofGA wood chip cars and may have to give up on at least 3 other pieces that would be nice additions to Thronateeska's collection. Money is the main consideration, although transportation issues are another factor.

This car is a beautiful example of great opportunity that is wanting. It is totally worthy of preservation, there are plenty of resources around to be found, but there is a shortage of leaders and vision to make the connection. At my last count there are 6 or 7 complete wooden passenger cars, all located in the Northeast, and all without a certain future. From my experience, any acquisition needs a champion (the leader) who will find the money from rattling the jar in front of fans, campaigning in communities, or schmoozing among the wealthy (the resources) in order to bring it to a designated museum and proceed with restoration. In not too many years past there needed to be the formation of the museum as well, but we are lucky to have good development in that area in the last 30 years across the region.

What I am afraid happens too often, and may be happening again, is what I will call the "Blount Effect." That is, those who may have the interest in doing a specific preservation project, have seen examples of it (acquisition, transportation, restoration) done well in the past by wealthy philanthropists, successful businesses, or some combination of both. Blount's Edaville and Steamtown, Strasburg, the Valley Railroad, the Conway Scenic, and the Wolfeboro railroad all come to mind. Thereby, when you are from an average middle-class background (not of the Boston blue-blood heritage, a successful professional, a business maven etc) the tendency is to dream of the day when one might gain the wealth to tackle such projects (i.e. win the lottery). To consider such leadership or risk taking would have been beyond their scope of involvement. In existing preservation, primarily at tourist railroads, support roles were all that seemed available, even if by some unwritten rule.

Well, that is just my observation of the trend steam railroad restoration in New England was taking from the 1950s through the 1970s. Perhaps I am wrong. Or maybe sometimes correct. In any case I am not very fond of this way of thinking, and on occasion I think I still see it among preservation groups. Not limited to New England in that regard. And since the 1970s we have seen the growth of New England preservation-oriented volunteer-based groups, perhaps even more so in recent years.

I just hope that scrappy people grab the reins of a project, such as this CV wood coach, and then because they don't know that they can't, they go ahead and bring the car to a local museum and make it grow. I firmly believe the resources are out there, and if someone is dedicated to their vision they will find what they need.

O. Anderson

Firmly believing resources are out there and if some ONE is dedicated is a nice thought and is possible, MAYBE. Please keep the one person theory in mind as you read this post.
One thing that needs to be considered when looking at a project is the cost of money. The cost of time needs to be factored as well.
Every hour spent out rattling the jar in front of fans could be spent actually working on the project. Jar rattling has PROVEN to be the least effective method of fund raising we've found in 30 years of existence.
Generally "Fans" will spend hundreds of dollars on a camera to take free pictures of what you’re doing but won't by a ticket to ride much less give you money or pitch in and help. (Correct me if anyone has found this to be a false statement)
If you raise 20 dollars in an hour while paying a company 55.00 an hour, or lots more depending on what's being done, you’re going backwards.
“Free” grants aren’t really free. It takes a fair amount of time researching and writing one to get the money. In this instance though the time spent (and any money sent in pursuit of) usually more than pays for the effort.
Good fund raising is a full time job as well. This leaves no time for the project the funds were intended for. ONE person will have their time consumed full time on fund raising leaving no time for the actual project.
Involve a group with several other high cost projects and you have to begin to prioritize projects. This means if your (insert project name here) doesn’t add to the bottom line, it goes to the back of the line.
With the limited number of groups with the resources to preserve something like a wood passenger car coupled with the fact most of them have decades worth of work on there plate currently, The future truly looks bleak for most of the cars needing a good home. Slowing decay is a very time consuming job in and of itself.
Bottom line is unless someone has the personal resources to restore and maintain this type of car there is not much of a future for the ones that aren’t currently being properly cared for. Mother Nature will win the race. Putting it in proper storage (this takes even more money) only slows down the decay. By the time your done paying for the building and related costs your only hope is that a future generation will take up the cause.

Not to sound argumentive or anything, but what ever happened to jacks?

If I had to move this car, I'd beg, borrow, or steal four fifty ton car jacks and a couple 12" I beams about fifteen feet long, and just do it. It could be done with only two jacks in a pinch, but four would be faster and easier.

I'd move the car to someplace where the track is buried in gravel up to the rail head, or at last resort, pay to bring in a couple of loads of gravel. I'd jack the car off its trucks, using the I beams as needle beams with the jacks at their outer ends, then back a long level deck trailer under it and lower it down on blocking to free the beams. The jacks could then be set close to the trailer to lower the car further if needed. I suspect the truss rods are far enough apart that they could straddle the trailer deck, so the overall height would only be about 14'. The trucks could then be winched up on a beavertail trailer, and the whole show would get where it has to go by highway.

It will be a shame if either this car or Jack's are scrapped simply because someone can't afford a crane.

Crane and or Jacks are not an issue for saving car 54. We have an operational Orton 200 ton wreck crane on site. I also have air jacks, mechaincal jacks, electric jacks and jacking beams This car was moved to the site with only the orton crane for unlaoding.
(was jacked at the last location to bring it here) We have moved a couple cars the very way Dennis discribed.
We even have an area specialy built up with gravel for loading and unloading off a roll up trailer. We just did Viscose#6 this very way in this place.

Dennis,

The only way to get CV382 out of her location is by rail.

Jacking her up and placing her on a trailer was not an option because of her deep truss rods, length and height. To exit her location by road, she has to pass under the Mainline and there would only be enough room if the truss rods were sitting on the street. The pass under was only designed for 40 foot long trailers, not a 60 foot long item on a 80 foot long double gooseneck. From what I was told, by the guy that was handling the arrangements was that the pass under was a dip under (ramp down, and ramp up to go under the main). Then there is the problem, where do you find an 70 ton, double gooseneck, capable of handling a 60 foot long load on the lower deck? Then there is the problem that she weighs more than the ratings of all the bridges leading to the museum, before adding the hauler(s).

She would need to be jacked, IIRC, almost 4 feet in order to clear the ends of the flat car we had arranged to use. This was deemed too high for untrained volunteers to handle safely, thus a professional crew was needed for this. The professionals decided the only safe way to do this was using (2) 60-75 ton cranes due to her weight and length, one for the front, and one for the back. Both cranes would lift at the same time, the trucks were to be pulled out of the way and the flatcar was to be pushed under and the coach lowered and secured to it. The drop center flatcar we were going to lease was built for transporting damaged commuter coaches. This car would have brought her low enough to just barely squeak her out under the wires, and if the Amtrak inspector was having a bad day could have easily said that she was too tall.

Regards,

Rich C.

Dennis, I have been thinking the same thing myself. But as an old rigger, I have a tendency to think outside the normal ways of getting stuff moved.

We moved a 100 ton GE diesel using "schnozzles" welded to the ends because we had height issues as well. The schnozzles allowed us to jack the diesel and put a set of wheels under the rear schnozzle, and a tractor under the front one and drive it to our site with the trucks about six inches off of the highway. I used to have pictures of them but they have been deleted to save space. sadly there are very few haulers out there that are willing ot move museum pieces at cost.

Later!
mr. Ed

This appears to be one of those situations where good intentions overrule practical considerations. Since I’m not familiar at all with the situation, I get to think it through from the start without various people pushing their agendas on me. I’m not picking a fight, but from reading the response above, these questions come to my mind: Why does this coach have to ride a special flatcar? Why does it need to be raised FOUR FEET to load it, and what’s so special about the flatcar if the resulting load ends up being too high? Why can’t the rigger do the job with jacks (unless he owns the cranes and likes to bill for their services)? What is Amtrak’s height restriction on the corridor?

To begin to formulate a plan, it would be helpful to know a few basic things about the car, such as its size and weight. Since from the photos I can see it has ten pair of windows and six wheel trucks, I’m going to assume the worst, that it is a 70’ coach. This is a big car from the last decade of wood car production, and it’s heavy. The two nearest examples I have references handy on are a 1903 Pullman built chair car and a 1910 Barney & Smith built coach. Both are 70’ even over the body end sills; 77’-9” over the buffers. The Pullman car is listed as weighing 111,800 pounds, and the B&S coach weighs 117,300. However, we need to subtract the weight of two six wheel trucks at an estimated 8,000 pounds each, and the full compliment of furniture, since in the photos the car does not appear to have seats. If each of the 28 - 32 seats were to weigh 150 pounds, that would be another 4000 pounds to deduct. All told, it looks like the body alone will weigh between 92,000 and 98,000 pounds, or just under fifty tons.

Being an eastern road car, the overall height very likely does not exceed 14’-1”, and the bottom of the body sills will be between 3’-6” and 3’-9” off the rails. Based on these numbers, I’d explore the use of a common, everyday TTX “all purpose” flat to haul this car. The deck height is 3’-6”, so if the body was shorn of its bolsters, draft sills, and truss rods, it would be no higher than the original 14’-1”. The Plate C, clearance diagram, which is for un-restricted interchange, allows 15’-6”. That would indicate that the body could be blocked up 17” from the flatcar deck and still not exceed Plate C. That would leave plenty of room to accommodate the body bolsters and draft sills. The steps and brake equipment would have to be removed, of course.

What about the truss rods? Best case scenario is they would straddle the flatcar deck. TTX all purpose flats are only 9’-0” wide. Diagrams in the 1906 Car Builders’ Dictionary show typical wood frame passenger cars of this era to be 9’-9” – 9’-10” over the outside of the frame, with the two truss rods centered under the outer 5” wide sills. This would indicate that the truss rods are on 9’-4” – 9’-5” centers. Careful measurement MAY show that the TTX car will slip right between them with an inch or so to spare. It’s not much, but as they say, “clearance is clearance.”

All this seems to indicate that the coach would only need to be jacked about 12-15” to have the car slid underneath. The TTX car is rated for 150,000 pounds of load, with proviso that it be de-rated for loads concentrated between the bolsters, which are 66’-0” apart. The coach could be blocked 24” inboard of each end sill and be supported directly over the flatcar bolsters. I’d be inclined to argue for a second set of blocking at the coach bolster, so the coach is supported where the builder intended, but having it blocked solid at the flatcar bolsters should allow the full capacity of the car to be used; more than enough for the job.

What happens if the truss rods WON’T fit outside the flatcar? Bummer, but not the end of the world. If you’ll refer to the framing plan of any wood coach, you’ll find that the body is framed with an internal plank truss in the wall. The truss rods can be removed temporarily with no ill effects to the car. I’d be inclined to support the car on three needle beams and six jacks, and would want to block the center solid to the flatcar deck, but it is certainly do-able. Keep in mind that passenger car truss rods DO NOT typically run through the floor to the end sill like on a freight car, but terminate at anchor castings on the bottom of the sills, inboard of the bolsters. The pins may be frozen and need to be cut out, but not impossible to do.

My biggest fear about moving an artifact by rail is they’ll hump the darned thing and destroy the coach. I’ve seen it before. To that end I’d want the car secured so it can’t slide off the end of the flatcar, and the 89’ length provides six feet at each end in which to build a steel fabrication to bear against the coach buffer spring casting and weld it to the top of the flatcar center sill. You want a real structural welder to do this work, not “Buzz Box Louie”. After these are on, the biggest problem will be to keep the railroad’s car inspector from insisting you cut holes all over the car to run tie downs through. See if you can talk him (or her) into steel strapping all the way around the load, as it will do the least damage, unless they turn the car over. Heavy tie downs through the step wells over the coach center sill would do the real work.

Good luck It seems there was interest in restoring this coach. I sure hate the thought that the project died because the crane guy was going to eat the bulk of the funds.

I look at this as not seeing the forest for the trees. Or, we are on the outside looking in and seeing solutions that are for the betterment of the car, not a personal (or corporate) agenda.

And let's face it, Dennis has done his homework!

Later!
Mr. Ed