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| The FRA https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24708 |
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| Author: | robertmacdowell [ Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | The FRA |
I noticed a subthread about FRA concerns. So what's the deal with the FRA? Are they autocratic or do they try to work with railway museums so you stay operating? Aside from steam, what kind of burden do they put on operating heritage railways? Are the requirements unnecessary, or are they in line with what any reasonble operator would do anyway? What's the toughest part of the regulations to comply with for your organization? Are there parts that are exceptionally challenging for volunteer organizations in particular? I understand it's possible to avoid FRA jurisdiction by turning rails over and not interchanging freight - how is that done? Which aspects of FRA regulation are avoided, and which are not? What's the advantage to doing so? |
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| Author: | Bill Dennehy [ Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
Like any governmental agency the FRA has rules that everyone must abide by. In some cases waivers can be applied for and may be granted. As an example, you want to use safety glass instead of FRA glazing in certain applications. The FRA person will tell you that X is what the rules call for. You can then install X or apply for a waiver to install Y. You are generally not exempt from FRA rules unless you are an insular RR, don't connect to another RR; don't cross any roadways, including farm roads; don't cross any navigable streams, etc. The FRA will inspect your track. You must meet Class 1 track standards to operate passenger trains. They will also inspect your locomotives, cars, brakes, and PAPERWORK. The person who inspects your track is not the person who will inspect your locomotives, so be prepared to develop relationships with more than one person. If you keep everything in proper trim expect to be visited periodically. If you play loose with the rules expect to be seeing the inspectors on a regular basis. They can and will shut you down in extreme cases as some museums have discovered. So play nice. Finally, even if you are insular, blow a boiler and kill someone expect to have a forced ingestion of alphabet soup. |
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| Author: | PCook [ Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
Some FRA people are enthusiastic supporters of railroad preservation and avid students of railroad history. PC |
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| Author: | BobCrowley [ Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
Quote: What's the deal with the FRA? Are they autocratic, or do they try to work with railway museums so you stay operating? Aside from steam, what kind of burden do they put on operating heritage railways? Are the requirements unnecessary, or are they in line with what any reasonble operator would do anyway? What's the toughest part of the regulations to comply with for your organization? Are there parts that are exceptionally challenging for volunteer organizations in particular? We have had very good relations with the FRA because we work with them instead of trying to get around any regulations. Some FRA inspectors are more rigid than others, but in general, they are all railroaders themselves, and more concerned with ensuring operations are handled in a safe manner. I have never seen any "unnecessary" requirements, although some may seem somewhat beyond what we expected to have to do to operate a railroad "just for the fun of it" as most railfans associated with heritage railways want to do. Again, the rules are there to ensure safety, and cutting corners around them is just asking for trouble in the long-term. No undue "burden" is placed upon heritage railways in any manner. The rules are there to keep you, your crews, and your visitors safe, so trying to bypass them is not usually a good idea. No special burden is placed upon steam operations either. The rules for the inspection and operation of steam locomotives are, like all the others, there to ensure safety. Your local goverments, state and county, also have rules for the inspection and operation of steam boilers in stationary facilities, although they do not apply to railroads since the FRA is there. Essentially, if you boil water under pressure outside of your kitchen, someone will want to inspect the way you do it. This is just safety. A boiler explosion can ruin your entire day. Quote: I understand it's possible to avoid FRA jurisdiction by turning rails over and not interchanging freight - how is that done? Which aspects of FRA regulation are avoided, and which are not? What's the advantage to doing so? Nope! You can avoid some FRA regulations by not having a perminent connection to the national rail system, but that does not get you out of FRA jurisdiction. You will still need to comply with most of the rules. The best way to determine which of the rules you think may or may not apply to you is to simply get a copy and read them. You may also, as we do, want to attend the periodic FRA training sessions held in your part of the country to learn more about what you have to do.[/quote] |
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| Author: | PaulWWoodring [ Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
I can tell you that if the FRA ever decides to take jurisdiction over a certain major amusement park railroad in the Midwest (and I understand that it has been discussed, because they haul more passengers than some commuter authorities do in a year), that that will be the end of that "ride", and it is a "ride", and is regulated by state amusement and boiler inspectors. They operate with things like link-and-pin couplers and no air brakes (open cylinder cocks and full reverse to stop), or blue flag protection - and they get along just fine, thank you. |
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| Author: | dan denham [ Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
Bob, I will echo what you have said about safety and the FRA. SVRy is an insular 3 ft. historic operation, and under FRA jurisdiction. We get along quite well with FRA. FRA inspects our boilers, track and cars. Crossings are inspected and under the jurisdiction of ODOT. Thanks to our OPS Mgr., Jerry Huck, our paper is kept up and monthly reports are sent in to FRA. Our CMO prepares our lokies for a hydro before each season, and the FRA inspector is of course, in attendance. We have had FRA inspectors speak at our annual Safety Weekend at least twice now. Our rules are pre-GCOR, and we modify and change them as needed. They were adopted from UP. FRA is content with our rules as long as we obey them, which we do. Four to five years ago our boilers were under Oregon State jurisdiction. Being under FRA is better. And, you are right, they are usually railfans. They always seem to enjoy their inspections and visits to SVRy and we want to keep it that way with safe operations at all times. Finally, speaking of railfans, and having nothing to do with FRA. Recently I was the first car in line at crossing gates on Reed Mkt. Rd. in Bend, Oregon. As the locomotive in a BNSF drag passed by and I watched in awe, the Engineer seemed more excited to see me and my car, than I was to watch him go by. It might have something to do with my SVRy window stickers, and my license plates, which are of course: SVRY. He waved and smiled excitedly and turned to talk with his Conductor, probably to tell him what he just saw. It is really great to see full time Hoggers get excited about an historic operation. Makes me think we are on the right track, pun intended. dan |
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| Author: | Alan Walker [ Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
robertmacdowell wrote: I understand it's possible to avoid FRA jurisdiction by turning rails over and not interchanging freight - how is that done? Which aspects of FRA regulation are avoided, and which are not? What's the advantage to doing so?
To a limited degree, that is true. However, in doing so you usually make yourself more vulnerable to attack by NIMBY type groups. Being under FRA regulation brings some protection through federal pre-emption of some local and state laws. |
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| Author: | Bob Davis [ Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
Maybe the folks at the amusement park "get along fine", but if their guardian angel ever goes on a break and something bad happens, they may wish they had more rigorous oversight. This whole discussion reminds me of my career in the electric utility industry. Our group had safety meetings every two months, and from time to time I'd pick up the Accident Prevention manual and say "Remember! Every page is written in blood!" I remember one rule that was added after one of our cable splicers lost his life on the job. People sometime ask if my interest in railroading is a family thing, and my reply is, "Not really. My dad had an uncle who was a brakeman back over a hundred years ago, but he had to make a "midlife career change" when he lost a hand in a link-and-pin coupling accident. He became a "muleskinner" (teamster) on construction jobs, because he could do that with one hand (and a voice that mules would understand). Some railway museums have link-and-pin couplers as part of their historical displays, and I always shudder a bit when I think of the "bad old days" of railroading. Whether you're dealing with 175 pounds of steam pressure, or 600 volts DC, treat it with the respect that's due. |
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| Author: | Bobharbison [ Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
I do track construction for a living, and so I'm most familiar with that portion of the FRA's rules. I can honestly say that the standards aren't a burden at all. When I talk to folks about the FRA regs, I remind them that they're the minimum safe standard for operation, and the standard they set is actually quite lenient. Take ties for example: 5 spike holding ties per 39' rail. That's one tie roughly every 8 feet. If you don't have one good tie in 8 feet, should you really be running passenger trains over that track? Instead of finding ways around the standards, your best bet is to find ways to meet them. Yes, it can be expensive if your line is in poor shape, but so are derailments and injuries. I realize there are exceptions, for example wood frame cars, but in those cases as others have said you can work with them and get waivers etc. They're not trying to make things difficult, just trying to keep things safe. |
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| Author: | HOD Bill [ Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
I think it is in our best interest to develop a good relationship with the local FRA team. Instead of viewing them as an adversary view them as a partner. A positive attitude goes a long way. Bill |
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| Author: | Robby Peartree [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | We are the problem |
The problems that I refer to are not of how the FRA carries out its responsibility as called for in federal law but rather their dealings with people who are a best less than honest and forth right. These problems ultimately paint a bad image of our industry and create a concern of just how we all operate and perform. When people lie to inspectors, evade their responsibility under our federal laws and do other things that potentially harm the general public they create an environment that many of us can not afford to tolerate. Ignorance and denial of the facts are not an excuse they are just potential causes for an accident. The FRA is there to protect people it is unfortunate that some of those people are some of our fellow tourist railways and railway museums. Robby |
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| Author: | adammil1 [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
I was wondering what is the minimum gage of track that the FRA is interested in? Do they go down to 3ft gage track and if so do they go down to 2ft gage of track? Where do they stop? My involvement in steam has always been more along the lines of live steam as that is what I had near where I grew up but there are some pretty big live steam locomotives out there. Just a pure curiosity question having seen some 16" gage stuff and smaller. Where is the cutoff point? Would be kind of funny to see the FRA inspecting N-gage trackage too! :) Adam |
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| Author: | Jeff A. [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
The following is copied from the FRA's website: ------------------------------------------------------------- Tourist, Scenic, and Excursion Railroads FRA exercises jurisdiction over tourist, scenic, and excursion railroad operations whether or not they are conducted on the general railroad system of transportation. There are two exceptions: (1) operations of less than 24-inch gage (which, historically, have never been considered railroads under the Federal railroad safety laws); and (2) operations that are off the general system and "insular." Q. 2 - What does insular mean? Answer: Insularity is an issue only regarding tourist operations over trackage outside of the general system used exclusively for such operations. FRA considers a tourist railroad to be insular if its operations are limited to a separate enclave in such a way that there is no reasonable expectation that the safety of any member of the public "except a business guest, a licensee of the tourist operation or an affiliated entity, or a trespasser" would be affected by the operation. Q. 3 - When is a tourist railroad not considered insular? Answer: A tourist operation will not be considered insular if one or more of the following exists on its line: • A public highway-rail crossing that is in use; • An at-grade rail crossing that is in use; • A bridge over a public road or waters used for commercial navigation; or • A common corridor with a railroad, i.e., its operations are within 30 feet of those of any railroad. Q. 4 - Do any of FRA’s regulations apply to insular tourist railroads? Answer: No. Many of FRA’s regulations do not currently apply to tourist railroads. However, FRA’s emergency order authority permits it to address a true safety emergency arising from conditions covered by those regulations or any other regulations that do not apply outside of the general railroad system. Thus, even off-the-general-system tourist railroads should understand that FRA has the jurisdiction to inspect their operations and to take emergency action if those operations pose an imminent hazard of death or injury. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This indicates the FRA has jurisdiction over anything 24 inch gauge and larger. One well-known rail historian (and former professional railroad manager) has made the case that the FRA has no legal authority to regulate narrow-gauge roads because they have no published standards specific to narrow-gauge track and equipment as they have for standard gauge. However, no one has challenged them in court on this matter and I can't imagine any tourist or museum operator in their right mind who would want to make a test case of this issue. As Dan Denham stated previously, our experience with FRA on the Sumpter Valley has been positive. Their involvement has enhanced safety and given credability to our operation. Most other tourist/museum operators seem to feel the same way. J |
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| Author: | J.B.Bane [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
Jeff, I know the discussion has been lengthy on the NG Discussion forum regarding the FRA and the applicability of their regs to 3'ga. or anything other than std. ga. I think you did a great job of summing this all up. I had the oppertunity to visit with an ODOT Rail (Oregon Dept. of Transportation Rail Division) inspector a couple years ago. He was on vacation and flagged me down as I was doing fire patrol. ODOT Rail as Dan Denham said controls all at grade crossings in Oregon in addition to what ever the FRA may require and operates cooperatively with the FRA in Ore. to enforce and guide rr's in adherance to FRA rules as well as anything they may have in addition. So this fellow was quite cordial and offered to do a complimentary track inspection for us (SVRy) if our mgmt. ever wanted him to. I asked him about the applicabillity of his std. ga. standards to 3'ga. and if they had any legal standing. He answer was basically yes and no. He said (I am paraphrasing as best as I can from memory)"yes the rules don't apply specifcally to 3'ga., but in his job, under the umbrella of insuring public saftey, he would apply the std. ga. standards to the extent they would reasonably carry over to 3' ga." I thought his response was quite reasonable. Some track saftey issues are clearly not gauge specific, such as open joints, excess point gap at switches, too many failed ties, rail with obvious serious defects, and I imagine we could come up with a pretty long list of things that are like this. While I don't in any way speak officially for SVRy, I think if he or an FRA man found any of these problems on our track, we would be grateful to be alerted to the problem. We are fortunate to have a willing and knowledgable volunteer roadmaster that pretty well insures these kind of problems don't occur. |
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| Author: | dan denham [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The FRA |
Jeff, Thanks for the post. From what you discovered, it sounds like by FRA definition we are not considered insular, so I am wrong on that point. FRA's quickness to drop in on the Georgetown Loop when they had a derailment a couple years ago demonstrates that they will indeed look into safety issues. Otherwise, I believe GTL is considered insular. Folks at GTL am I right on this? dan |
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