Railway Preservation News :: View topic - NRHS and railway preservation ( a bad example ? )

Quote:

NRHS usually declares a chapter "inactive" if it has less than five members in good standing (i.e. their dues are paid);

Of course the question is how do you define inactive? The Mohawk & Hudson Chapter apparently has about 30 members yet has no scheduled meetings, may or may not still print a "newsletter" and is happily letting 5 or six historic pieces of equipment rot into the ground (or be scrapped by the unhappy landowners where the stuff rests) while several serious outside attempts to save some of these things over the last 10 years have been ignored. And let's not talk about what might be missing, lost or misfiled at the Alco photo collection.

[color=red]This group(M&H) is down to less than 10 members. They have one member who has "taken over" and trying to profit from selling equipment owned by the group. See Railswap(RS-3 parts) Instead of giving away the equipment to any historical group or persons who have the money to move it; he is playing games in regards to who gets it. meanwhile vandals have destroyed many pieces which are one of a kind that used to be in very good shape. No attempt is being made to protect the equipment from further damage. JohnC

Quote:

The NRHS in my opinion has long outlived it's usefulness and would do the entire preservation industry a favor by disbanding.

From the 4 or 5 Chapters I work with on financial issues the large dues hike by the National last year will effectively disband several chapters with the huge numbers of members not renewing. Don't expect a bang (disbanding), expect it to continue to fade with a whimper. You just wish they would do it without leaving the rest of us a black eye like the situation in Hattiesburg.

Author:	PLATFORMCAR [ Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:24 am ]
Post subject:	NRHS and railway preservation ( a bad example ? )
I had a chance recently to stop in Hattiesburg Mississippi at the recently restored depot that serves the City of Hattiesburg along with Amtrak patrons. The station recently underwent a 10 million dollar restoration, and is now the centerpiece of a resurgent downtown in this small Mississippi city. The station serves the north and south bound Amtrak Crescent ( 19/20 ) and is on the NS mainline. The restoration of this station is indeed beautiful, however there is one small downside to this otherwise happy story. Just north of the depot ( along the northside station platform ) is a small equipment display behind a marginally useful fence with barb wire that includes Bonhomie & Hattiesburg Southern RR No. 300 2-8-2 and Hercules Powder Co. No. 21 0-4-0F along with a heavyweight ex Southern baggage car. The equipment ( in my opinion ) shows virtually no effort to maintain the items and sit what I would call totally neglected directly adjacent to the restored depot... The locomotives sit unprotected from the weather elements, showing no signs of any effort to paint and maintain them, and in addition not one bit of effort has been put forth to identify what these locomotives are, who owns them and why they are historically important to the region. Some on line research of this equipment indicated the three pieces are owned or on loan to the National Railway Historical Society Mississippi Gulf Coast chapter. Additional research indicates the chapter was formed in 1969 and very little else is known about this NRHS group. Now with that example provided, my question is this, is anyone in a position to better explain the fundamental responsibility that comes along with being a chapter of the NRHS. When I say responsibility, I mean what is required to become and or maintain a chapter membership in the NRHS. I use the Hattiesburg Mississippi as an example. Here was an example of a depot that was restored with 10 million dollar in funds, to become a showpiece for this small city, yet a NRHS display with at least one locally historical steam locomotive, sit totally neglected as an unfortunate "public statement" of rail history. It would almost seem, that a declining NRHS membership, perhaps due to age, or other demographics, causes these chapters to go dormant, allowing truly unique pieces of equipment to suffer, in some cases beyond restoration. This is certainly not the only NRHS display that suffers and shows little activity. In rail preservation it seems to me ( at least in the south ) that after the NS steam program ended, many of the NRHS chapters seemed to go quiet. So I ask, what is next for equipment in the hands of NRHS chapters that have gone quiet. I understand its certainly not all NRHS chapters, however I can think of many chapters that own equipment, that have gone silent. Just curious if anyone shares these thoughts, and what the future holds ? Would like to know the good and bad of NRHS equipment ownership. If anyone would like to see the depot, and the locomotives in this display, just send me a note and I will email you some photographs. Thank you Dean Levin

Author:	steamtown observer [ Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NRHS and railway preservation ( a bad example ? )
Dean, There have been several threads on RYPN discussing the NRHS and whether or not it has any serious interest in railroad preservation. As you correctly note, a lot of NRHS Chapters in the Southeast and a few in the Midwest were created or existed almost solely to act as sponsors for Southern/NS Steam program trips. Many appear to have more or less folded up with no permanent address, no publications (or years behind schedule), and no serious contact info. I believe the National NRHS has ignored these Chapters for two reasons: first, they hope somehow (spontaneous combustion? osmosis?) people will magically join and revitalize them; second, I think they have not moved to revoke the charters because having all these chapters listed on the national website and in the directory gives the illusion of a vibrant, national organization with a local presence everywhere. Remove the 15 or so obviously moribund Chapters and it helps show the drastic loss of members that goes with it. Certainly there are NRHS Chapters doing historic preservation, but you'll notice that most of the real preservation "do-ers" who post on RYPN don't do there thing though an NRHS Chapter.

Author:	Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NRHS and railway preservation ( a bad example ? )
For the record, the NRHS has indeed revoked the charters of a few inactive chapters over the years. It has fairly easy-going standards, I must concede, but it's not as if it's never happened.

Author:	Andy [ Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NRHS and railway preservation ( a bad example ? )
Having been involved with a chapter of the NRHS that passed an amendment to their by-laws that allowed them to expell a member if they felt the member's employment was determined to be in "competition" with the chapter, and subsequenly expelled from that chapter for being a paid employee of a railroad I can tell you the NRHS does not care. The chapters as divisions of the NRHS cannot own equipment, so they form "foundations" that operate in conjunction with the chapter. These foundations are usually non-profit and the actually entity that owns, restores and operates equipment. However, the foundations are not part of the NRHS and can operate without any guidelines from the NRHS. When the chapter I was involved with was expelling myself and another member for our involvement with a railroad I contacted the NRHS main membership officer. His reply at that time was that any issues involving the "foundations" operating from a "chapter" do so independent and without any guidelines from the NRHS. He was kind enough to tell me he could help me retain a non-chapter NRHS membership though. I declined and have had nothing to do with NRHS or any chapters for over 20 years now. How can a group that claims to be interested in preservation justify removing members that work for a railroad? How can that same group remove two members but yet retain others that work for railroads? The NRHS in my opinion has long outlived it's usefullness and would do the entire preservation industry a favor by disbanding. There needs to be some sort of binding community effort but I do not think the NRHS is interested or capable of being that entity. While there are some chapters that have done or are doing wonderful things I believe there are many more with tracks full of dreams that will never be realized do to finances, people, time, location, the list goes on and on. A common body trying to organize these groups and possibly then approaching government and private finance groups could prove the kick we need to see something finally happen on a grand level. My two cents, crucify or agree as you see fit.

Author:	mxdata [ Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NRHS and railway preservation ( a bad example ? )
Not at all inconsistent with many other NRHS stories I have heard. Many chapters have become slide showing clubs run by an aging political clique. People who could pose a risk of "rocking the boat" or challenging the supremacy of the local crew are sometimes not welcome, that applies both to potential members and program presenters. MX

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Author:	Matt Bumgarner [ Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NRHS and railway preservation ( a bad example ? )
I've been a member of the Alexander Chapter NRHS since 1991, and I have never heard that chapters cannot own equipment. Our chapter currently owns a Lawndale boxcar and used to own a Tallulah Falls caboose. The Asheville chapter owns a caboose and used to own several passenger cars, and the Piedmont-Carolinas chapter owns or did own a couple of passenger cars as well. I am completely unaware of the need for a separate foundation as a requirement for the ownership of equipment. Matt Bumgarner

Author:	smokebox [ Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:	We owe our NRHS Chapter many Thanks
The Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation would not be where it is today in part due to the help of our local NRHS, the Pacific Northwest Chapter. The PNWC has supported the ORHF's efforts from its first public event, the Grand Opening of the Springwater Trail on the Willamette. The Oregon Pacific Railroad hosted the trains, powered by SP&S 700 and SP 4449. The train was made up of OPR, PNWC, and a privately owned car. The PNWC acted as Carhosts and Carmen. PNWC has continued its support of the ORHF with it's equipment, knowledge, and experience. Most notably with an active PNWC representative on the ORHF Board of Directors, and contributions to the past three years of Holiday Express. We owe our local NRHS, The Pacific Northwest Chapter, many Thanks. www.orhf.org Dave Brown ORHF Springwater on the Willamette Grand Opening Event: Chairman Holiday Express: Chairman Holiday Express II: Chairman

Author:	p51 [ Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NRHS and railway preservation ( a bad example ? )
With any 'restoration' effort, there are some groups more motivated than others, and financial support which varies from group to group. It's unfair to see one chapter and make a blanket statement on the entire NRHS based on what one group isn't doing very well. mxdata wrote: Not at all inconsistent with many other NRHS stories I have heard. Many chapters have become slide showing clubs run by an aging political clique. I guess I was lucky, in that the chapter I joined at the age of 14 didn't have much clique action going on. Then again, we weren't the most active chapter in the organization. I have no info to back this up, but the NRHS's average age must be well into the 60s by now and is doing a horrible job of attracting newer (younger) members. I was in my mid 30s yet felt like a child at my last national convention in 2005 in comparison to most of the members around me. I'm convinced that the NRHS will have imploded within the next couple of decades unless something truly drastic is done before then. My 25 years with the group pops up in two years (I joined in my teens) and I'll probably go back to my old chapter to be awarded my 25 year pin. Right after that, my plan is to let my membership lapse. I haven't gotten anything out of the membership that I can't get elsewhere where I live. I have three steam tourist RR's in the area and plenty of other non-NRHS groups I can belong to if I wish. I do agree that they've really turned the Bulletin around into a decent magazine and I do enjoy it, but right now I maintain my membership only to hit 25. I plan on writing a long letter explaining this to the powers that be once I'm done. I've read that the internet and smaller groups with their own equipment, coupled with the demise of most of the big steam programs, killed the need for RR related organizations. I'm inclined to agree with that.

Author:	Andy [ Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: NRHS equipment ownership
No I cannot give chapter and verse, I am going from 20 year old memories. When my father and I first joined the group you also had to pay a seperate fee (dues) to the foundation. It was explained to us at that time a chapter could not own equipment and thus the foundation. Maybe it was just another of the political issues that surround that particular chapter. That aside the NRHS still did nothing when myself and another member were being expelled for working for a railroad. We were being expelled from not only the foundation but the chapter also, as the two operate as one. Is it possible the other chapters have not made the existence of their "foundations" as prominent as the one I was with? It doesn't matter what you paint on the side of the equipment it is what the ownership papers say that counts. Therefore Roanoke Chapter NRHS maybe be on the cars while actual ownership could be Roanoke Railroad Historical Foundation or something along that line. No urban legend here, just what I know I experienced first hand. If you want more information please contact me private as I am trying to not put names and groups here. You still won't get them but I might give you more details.

Author:	Heavenrich [ Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: NRHS and railway preservation ( a bad example ? )
NRHS usually declares a chapter "inactive" if it has less than five members in good standing (i.e. their dues are paid); there's no requirement in the NRHS bylaws that a chapter own equipment nor is their a restriction that a chapter can't own equipment or operate a museum and in fact the NRHS Annual Activities issue of the NRHS Bulletin indicates which ones do just that. Bob H

Author:	steamtown observer [ Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: NRHS and railway preservation ( a bad example ? )
Quote: NRHS usually declares a chapter "inactive" if it has less than five members in good standing (i.e. their dues are paid); I know of one really old chapter that is down to 14 - they are trying to spend their money by giving it to local projects before they drop down to that magic 5 number and go away. I know of another chapter in the South that has 6 members, but two of them are actually deceased. One of the other four pays their dues for them and their addresses are listed as c/o the Chapter's PO box. Wouldn't it be easier to just find someone else who is alive to join? Of course the question is how do you define inactive? The Mohawk & Hudson Chapter apparently has about 30 members yet has no scheduled meetings, may or may not still print a "newsletter" and is happily letting 5 or six historic pieces of equipment rot into the ground (or be scrapped by the unhappy landowners where the stuff rests) while several serious outside attempts to save some of these things over the last 10 years have been ignored. And let's not talk about what might be missing, lost or misfiled at the Alco photo collection. Quote: The NRHS in my opinion has long outlived it's usefulness and would do the entire preservation industry a favor by disbanding. From the 4 or 5 Chapters I work with on financial issues the large dues hike by the National last year will effectively disband several chapters with the huge numbers of members not renewing. Don't expect a bang (disbanding), expect it to continue to fade with a whimper. You just wish they would do it without leaving the rest of us a black eye like the situation in Hattiesburg.

Author:	mxdata [ Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: NRHS and railway preservation ( a bad example ? )
And as I have noted in previous discussions, the Amherst Railway Society (Massachusetts), a totally independent group that is a sponsor of this site and is not affiliated with NRHS, continues to get large turnouts for their monthly meetings despite being in a location that is a long drive for almost everyone who attends. There is something to learn there, if anybody cares to do so, but I suspect many NRHS chapters just don't care to do so. Their 2007-2008 calendar of events: http://amherstrail.org/calendar.html MX

Author:	Newriver400 [ Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: NRHS equipment ownership
As I recall, the provision in the NRHS by-laws that prevented Chapters from owning equipment was in the early years and has ling since been done away with. However, as a result, I know of at least three older chapters in the Southeast that set up separate corporations for equipment ownership. I have been told by those much older than I that the original thought was that the National Society would establish a museum and did not want to compete with its individual chapters for donations and funding. It is also possible that this had something to do income tax law of the time and the word "museum" or "foundation" was needed to add a sense of legitimacy. Oddly, I know of one chapter that was actually unincorporated until about 1990 though it had owned and operated (allegedly) one of these "museums" since 1961! Later, Mike

Author:	JohnC [ Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NRHS and railway preservation ( a bad example ? )
steamtown observer wrote: Quote: NRHS usually declares a chapter "inactive" if it has less than five members in good standing (i.e. their dues are paid); Of course the question is how do you define inactive? The Mohawk & Hudson Chapter apparently has about 30 members yet has no scheduled meetings, may or may not still print a "newsletter" and is happily letting 5 or six historic pieces of equipment rot into the ground (or be scrapped by the unhappy landowners where the stuff rests) while several serious outside attempts to save some of these things over the last 10 years have been ignored. And let's not talk about what might be missing, lost or misfiled at the Alco photo collection. [color=red]This group(M&H) is down to less than 10 members. They have one member who has "taken over" and trying to profit from selling equipment owned by the group. See Railswap(RS-3 parts) Instead of giving away the equipment to any historical group or persons who have the money to move it; he is playing games in regards to who gets it. meanwhile vandals have destroyed many pieces which are one of a kind that used to be in very good shape. No attempt is being made to protect the equipment from further damage. JohnC Quote: The NRHS in my opinion has long outlived it's usefulness and would do the entire preservation industry a favor by disbanding. From the 4 or 5 Chapters I work with on financial issues the large dues hike by the National last year will effectively disband several chapters with the huge numbers of members not renewing. Don't expect a bang (disbanding), expect it to continue to fade with a whimper. You just wish they would do it without leaving the rest of us a black eye like the situation in Hattiesburg.

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