It appears that the volunteers at the Nevada County Narrow Gauge Railroad Museum ( www.ncngrrmuseum.org ) have a project to construct a 0-4-0 based on a flash boiler (home made) and wheels off a internal combustion Whitcomb. They have lots of photos and updates on their web site… While it’s and interesting idea, the running gear, particularly the cylinders, lack of cross head, and very small rods look a bit flimsy to my eye, and I question the issues of safety and legality concerning the home made steam generator.

They previously focused their efforts on the restoration of a 1970’s tourist railroad rail bus reconstruction. It is painted a really spectacular and historically questionable shade of blue, and is commonly seen operating festooned with plastic flags reminiscent of a used car lot.

The group has some spectacular legitimate artifacts, including a 1870’s Baldwin narrow gauge 2-6-0, a F&CC (NCO) wooden coach, various SP and West Side Lumber cars, and several good replicas of local narrow gauge equipment. The have a nice shop/museum building.

They do have a strange hybrid operation sharing some track and land with a local motel which has offered train rides using an rare Lima built 3’ gauge 2-6-0 and a variety of 2’ gauge equipment, all owned by the motel.

While I applaud the volunteers for their level of activity, I can’t help but wonder what message a blue rail car gives the visitor… Thoughts?

They may be going after foreign visitors, doesn't South Africa have an entire Blue Train?
One of the mid-Western interurban trolley lines that ran across the border between Pennsylvania and Ohio (Penn-Ohio Lines?) had some interurban interchange freight trailers painted blue and white.

Randy and all,

I have seen the progress on the website and have similar questions as you do. The railbus has a modern ford engine and transmission, modern hydraulic disk brakes, and has some tracking issues from what I have seen of it run. Perhaps they have sorted that issue out now. As for their locomotive I do not know how it will fare in operation. The steam passageways in the fabricated cylinders look to be 1/2" copper tube with flare fittings, the design has no provision for a crosshead and guides (it relies on the piston rod only), there are no shoes or wedges, the frame is made of welded box tube, aluminum bronze is used for rod brasses, etc. I believe they are spending around $30,000 to build this locomotive. The question I have always had is how much could the new Glenbrook boiler at NSRM be had for and would it work on NCNG #5? For similar money perhaps they could have replaced the 1960s era movie boiler on that locomotive and made it operate. This would not remove any historic fabric from the locomotive and would render it a public outreach and education tool of local significance. In regard to joint operations with the hotel in question, I believe their has been a falling out between the parties and the museum group is severed from the railroad on the hotel's property. Regardless, I make these comments as observations and not judgments and hope that this group's solutions work for their success.

Best,

Stathi Pappas

The Chicago & Eastern Illinois was also a "blue" road. And the Wabash too. In fact, the Wabash had passenger trains called the "Banner Blue" and the "Bluebird".

There were others "blue" roads too!

Les

Accepting the use of Blue paint on railroad cars (including SP 1010 when built in 1882 in California) Blue is not the color I would have come up with (and I study 19th and early 20th century paint) when I think of a logging speeder...

My issue with the projects at the NCNG museum are deeper than paint. At the risk of attacking this group and their efforts, their trophy restoration projects are a 1970's tourist railroad speeder/railcar and a questionable recreation of a small steam engine while they ignore their core historic assets. The efforts seem more in line with a public park ride than a railroad museum.

I hope you are not going to have to moderate yourself.

That said, I appreciate your concerns, but I am not sure what can be done about it. Referencing a recent discussion, has the SPCRR looked into acquiring any of the equipment they have been unable to protect from the elements?

Maybe you could trade them some shiny flags.

Randy,
There are numerous questions about the mechanics of this new locomotive. Some of us doubt that the steam generator can produce enough steam to propel the locomotive, not even considering the lack of crossheads, nor the unorthadox frame/axle design.
I was told this design was chosen to circumvent the pressure vessel regulations and training requirements. Hmmm.
Steamcerely,
David Dewey

How does calling it a steam genrator avoid regulations if it runs at 135 psi? Somewhere it seems there is a lot of thermodynamic energy stored in that system, with the resulting potential scenarios of a failure. Also wonder about brass fittings on the cylinders, since those alloys are known to work harden and become brittle with even very small flexing or stress cycles.

Sort of like reinventing the wheel while the wheel is still round and rolls ok. There must be some reasoning there we are not privy to. Anyone on this board know the inside dope and can quench the speculation?

That said it will be interesting to watch and see what turns out.

Bob Kutella

Well, the new locomotive is certainly interesting. I always sort of figured they just hadn't gotten around to fitting the crossheads yet. I do like the home-brewed Baker valve gear.

I'm really curious to see how the thing will perform. The "steam generator" is a big question mark (that's been tried more than once) and the tiny steam passages in the fabricated cylinders are another.

At any rate, I have to applaud them for building a new steam locomotive. Hopefully, it'll work out.

Randy, for many of us Californian's who are familiar with the politics of this little museum up in Nevada City, you stated eloquently without flaming. I have wanted to post when I saw this subject come up as I have much inside information as I know you do about this group. I will tame my tongue for now and wish them the best on their efforts to interpret whatever it is they think should run on their small layout, while allowing further decay of some fabulous rolling stock.

Not sure if you knew but the Northern Queen Inn which deeded some of the property in order to build the museum years ago, did begin building a 3' gauge right of way towards the museum and did lay some track. However due to the differences that began by the benevolent NQI and the museum, that project was stopped and there is no rail connection to this day.

The NQI's 2-6-2 Lima is former Swamp Rat Argent Lumber #5 built in 1910. It is still a wood burner and last ran about 7-8 years ago. It is needing some boiler work and general maintenance. The 4 wheel tender is built from a former West Side Lumber Co. MOW car.

The two foot gauge railroad on the NQI site is quite a feat of engineering. It climbs some pretty good grades and goes through 5 switchbacks to the top of Cemetery Hill. On the trip the narrator comments on much of the history in the area including the NCNG and ALWAYS promotes the museum next door. However that is not the case when visiting the museum.

For years the family that owns the NQI allowed the early participants such as Ken Yeo and others to restore and replicate the cars that are at the museum. When Hal Wilmunder passed on his estate loaned some of his remaining equipment from the Antelope & Western to the museum. It is sad to see how things have gotten in the last few years.

I won't even begin to comment on the "steam" locomotive that is being built by the "experts" up there.

Its good to see though that Wilmunder's Porter has a place to shine each Labor Day!

Nuff said...

So THAT'S where Argent Lumber #5 got to! Glad to hear yet another Argent "swamp rat" is operable and cared for! Anyone got photos? What happened to her original tender, which was apparently still with her in her last reported home in Ohio?

I have been asking many of the same questions about that homebrewed contraption since it was brought to my attention over 2 years ago. And have been mostly (completely by the people there anyway) ignored.

IMO The "engineering" (possible seat of the pants, wild a## guessing?) being used on this loco seems to appear marginal at best. i DO know that the "steam generator" (read: water tube flash steam boiler) idea MIGHT work...IF it is perfectly sized to match the steam usage of the cylinders. Considering the other...unique design features of this project, I rather doubt it will be. I really do hope it will, but....

I have a friend that used to volunteer at the NCNG museum. He still maintains contact with a few members, but this project and some other things they are doing are a big part of the reason he doesn't anymore.

A friend of mine sent me a note on the NCNG to pass along, but asked I withold his name for the moment. If this violates the policy of the board, go ahead and remove it......

He says, "I still stay in some contact with the NCNG museum as I work literally around the corner from it now. The locomotive HAS moved under its own "power", although I believe they were using compressed air and not the steam generator yet. I will say this, I try not to be publicly critical of the project as I do still have many acquaintances up there, but to be honest those of us with our heads screwed on know that this thing is going to be a massive failure. The initial idea for the locomotive cropped up around the time Hal Wilmunder's Porter was stored up there. Since Les Wilmunder was letting the Porter stay and was going to supposedly allow museum members and others to operate it on special occasions. There was some conflicts of interest between Les and the group resulting in Les and his equipment leaving, yes including the equipment Hal had willed to the group. Around this same time the museum was in a power change as the old president of the group retired and passed on the torch, as this was happening Ken Yeo stopped volunteering his time and took his collection of artifacts out of the museum again because of a conflict of interest.

After the new president and head of restoration were chosen (keep in mind there was no one left qualified to do either of these jobs) the project to build the little faux Porter were started. Why? Well its simple, when the group ran off Les they decided that they didn't need his Porter they could and would build their own. One member put up a large portion of funds since this was his design and more money has been raised since then. Ever since the power shift the restoration group's focus has been heavily skewed towards toys. The railbus at first was a neat idea but it was poorly executed by folks who thought they could make their changes to design to make it safer. While the bus might seem safer, it certainly is not and is operated by folks who have never operated in any form of tourist or railroad service save 1 volunteer. This was the case in Carson City, NV a few years back when the railbus was taken "on tour" and split a switch on the museum grounds because their operators disreguard for safety. I have been told by a couple sources that they will NOT be invited back.

Eventually things got so bad that a number of us stopped even bothering to go around. Personally I do still keep some contact with the curator and the folks inside the display building. Thankfully the curator has a good head on his shoulders, but his focus is on the display building and the history he does not make decisions of restoration matters. The NCNG group is a very home brewed group there is no real objective, no goal, other than to the majority of the group's desire to make a tidy little NCNG display train, this is why so much other equipment is left to rot they simply do not care about cars that the NCNG didn't have some form of. The prime example is the D&RGW stock car they got from Universal, it has sat for years deteriorating away because as members of the group have told me directly "The NCNG didn't have them". There is no accountability, no higher person to raise a fuss with. Someone with political sway might be able to get the City to turn some screws but for all intents and purposes the group is funded by donation, they do not write for grants or recieve any assistance other than the city footing the bill for the power/water.

The NCNG group had much potential years ago but as people got into positions of power they were able to turn the museum from a functional workshop that preserved history into a Coffee Club for volunteers to bs and waste money on pet projects while true historic artifacts continue to rot. Before anyone goes off on a crusade, keep in mind that not everything is the fault of the volunteers, most of them are there to do something and some of them are brilliant carpenters and machinists that frankly are lacking true direction as a group. The NCNG group is a complex entity and one that has been burdoned with politics for its entire existance. Since the group was started by the Nevada County Historical Society it falls under their management, for those of you that don't know the NCHS is largely a group of older women who know nothing about their local history other than what they've learned from each other. What is worse than having a clueless historical society is the first NCNG groups president screwed with the politics so much he created a group where he was in charge and no one could ever unseat him a dictator for life so to speak.

So what am I doing? I am waiting. There will come a day when the majority of the volunteers are no longer healthy enough to work as much and some will have to step down. When that day comes myself and others who truly support the history of the NCNG and want to see the museum succeed will return and help guide the group in the right direction again. Until then, it is a painful heartbreaking waiting game, I have been known to lose my cool at the mere mention of the group and a few months ago I happened to go by and inspect the locomotive and was unable to stay long as I became very disgusted with the group and what they were doing. Time will tell the fate of the group, we're watching, and waiting. "