What is the preferred type of nail to use for wood siding? Regular steel nails would be more "authentic", but for a hopefully everlasting covered display, what would be our best choice of nail for siding on a boxcar?

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions!

Matt Bumgarner

If you are going inauthentic, just use a finishing nail gun and blind nail them in through the tongues. No exterior penetrations to retain moisture and start nail hole rot. If authenticity matters, stainless might be the best alternative to iron or galvanized - in my experience the galvanization on the head cracks off when struck with the hammer, leaving the nice exposed rusty pattern of nail heads visible after a couple seasons along the sills. Probably iron clouts or steel cut nails for authenticity for up to 1920's - square shanked stuff.

Construction adhesive is a good idea for long term durability.

dave

Since it is for a boxcar, I am guessing your question is about face nailing the siding, rather than hidden nails as on tongue and groove for a trolley, el car, or passenger car.

If the car is to remain covered, consider original steel nails. Both galvanized and stainless nails would last longer - as far as the fastener goes. But they might present some problems with paint adhering to those metals.

What do stainless nails cost? Not something I have tried to source.

Bob Kutella

If it will be stored inside then use steel. If outside, use stainless. The cost of stainless over steel can be at least 3-4X. I see this as a small part of the restoration project and one that can made a good job look lousy with rust lines.

If you want to use cut (square shank) nails, buy them from the Wheeling Labelle Nail Co. http://www.wheeling-labelle.com/

This company has been in business since 1852 and is a National Historic Landmark. We all owe it to ourselves to help this place stay in business by buying our nails from them. I'm going to use their stainless cut nails in a pole building that I'll put up this summer.

On a related note, does anybody have a source for dome-headed round steel nails?

One of WRM's box cars was built by Mt.Vernon Car Co. in 1919, and its siding is nailed on with dome-headed nails. They are just like regular wire nails, except the head has a distinctly rounded crown to it instead of being flat.

Thanks so much to everyone who responded, it was all helpful. This Lawndale boxcar has a pretty strange nailing pattern and materials. Square cut nails are used in the tongues of the siding, two round wire finish nails are face-nailed, and the left most of these face nails is topped with a regular round-headed steel nail.

Thanks again!

Matt Bumgarner
Alexander Chapter-NRHS

You are probably looking at an unwritten record of the car’s history here. Very likely, the siding was originally tongue nailed only. At some point it loosened up to the point that the car foreman told someone to face nail it before it started to fall off. Later still, it was loose again, and they added a box nail to each board, nailing close to one of the finish nails to cut down on the number of nail holes. Replacement boards inserted from time to time likely have the latest nailing pattern, but not the earlier ones.

Are you replacing the siding, or just re-nailing what is there? Traditional car building woods like Douglas Fir heartwood, can have a life measured in decades, and will outlast wire nails if the water gets into the joints. Stainless would be my choice there; do it once and be done with it. If you are replacing the siding with wood from the local home center lumber yard, don’t bother with the stainless, the present day pine will be rotted and gone long before the nails rust through.

We will be replacing all of the siding, and most definitely, this nail pattern holds for the entire car. We are using Cypress for the siding, and Hemlock for the sidesills. The car is currently indoors and will ultimately be displayed under a covered car barn.

Thanks!

Matt

An excellent source for stainless, brass and silicon bronze fasteners including stainless steel siding nails and rose head copper nails which are round head natels can be found at james town distributors. their prices are excellent. their web address is www.JamestownDistributors.com

When I was in college many moons ago, I took an elective course on materials. As an EE student I thought it would be good knowledge to have. Anyway, our instructor showed photos of what happens when stainless is deprived of oxygen.

As I recall, stainless is a form of oxidation, and requires a continual supply of oxygen to retain it's stainless characteristics. The photos showed stainless steel used in window frames in a building in Portland. Seems the stainless was buried behind trim, and after several years had to be replaced because the stainless was badly rusted. It seems it was deprived of oxygen, while becoming wet.

My point in this is the ask if anyone has actually used stainless nails in an environment wherein they can become wet, but deprived of oxygen, such as in siding? I am curious to know if in this situation they will indeed rust, or keep the stailnless charactistics.

Anyone know the answer?

thanks,

dan

Dan,

I hate to say it, but the most likely explanation, based on the evidence presented, is that your instructor was all wet. Go here for a good discussion of the corrosion properties of stainless steels:

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?Article ... Background

I would hardly classify the interface between a nail and the board it’s holding as an “oxygen free environment” The most likely causes of the deterioration exhibited by the SS window frames are galvanic corrosion with dissimilar metal trim, or crevice corrosion with salts leached out of the mortar.

Stainless steel nails and screws are common for building decks, mostly to avoid rust staining, but the fact they don’t rust is in our favor, as if they don’t corrode, they won’t fail.

I’m impressed that this group is making the new siding out of cypress; I wasn’t aware that cypress lumber could still be had commercially. Cypress heartwood was one of the traditional woods used for water tanks, along with redwood heartwood, because of it’s great resistance to rot.

I am anxiously awaiting a knowledgeable reply to Dan's question about stainless and anaerobic environments. I hope someone knows about this.

I will not make a suggestion on the nail/fastener question above, but I will say what I am working on and what I am choosing for a siding fastener and why. I am building some 1/4 size rail cars with all the parts and castings built exactly to scale. The only area that I am obviously deviating from prototypical practice is in the use of (square drive) screws (either silicon bronze, or stainless) to attach the siding, instead of traditional nails. I believe screws will allow a tighter fit of the siding to the side-wall structure, and they do not work loosen to the same degree that nails do, and that could help keep out moisture and decrease maintenance. I can also tighten screws if they do work loose, and they are easily removed to perform maintenance behind the siding when needed.

I know I will pay more for screws, but the fasteners are one of my smallest expenses anyway.

I'm also investigating modern wood treatments and paints to protect the equipment longer and with less maintenance. That is my intention anyway. I have read that quite a few of the tourist RR's and museums that own wooden-sided rollingstock have been using modern latex paints and wood sealants to protect their 100+ year old rollingstock and to minimize furhure weather damage. I'm following thier lead. I hope it works!

I am also skeptical of the story that stainless without oxygen corrodes. In industry Stainless Steel is widely used for tanks and piping systems and the insides of these almost never see any oxygen, except for perhaps minute amounts of dissolved oxygen in the contents. The outside of these tanks stay shiny bright, and so do the insides. There is no discernible difference, inside to outside.

One thing we all need to realize is that there must be hundreds of alloys and mixtures that qualify as generically named stainless. The 400 series contain nickel and are often magnetic. Most other common stainless steels are not. The commonly used 302 and 304 series stainless steel have very poor corrosion resistance to any aqueous solution containing chloride ions {salt water}. That can be mitigated somewhat with passivation of the stainless after welding and polishing by treating it with phosphoric acid. And of course there are more durable stainless steels for specific environments like 316 and 316 ELC.

While stainless is quite weldable and an excellent metal for many fabrication jobs, the weld zones can cause the problem due to migration or crystallization or precipiation of some of its ingredients, notably carbon. Watch those areas first for signs of corrosion!

None of that should impact our discussion of nails (and screws) except to ask what alloy they are, and do your homework, at least on a beginners level. All stainless is not stainless.

Bob Kutella

i agree with you Bob. Most people don't know that there are magnetic and non magnetic stainless steels. Depending on the application required will determine the viability of its corrosive properties. The boat building industry has been using stainless for quite a while now and their supply houses have stainless fasteners suitable for that purpose. I don't believe that a box car or other railroad equipment should receive the same exposure as wooden boats do to aqueous solutions including saltwater. Of course maybe someone has come up with a way to use a box car or caboose as a house boat.