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| Antiques and the FRA https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2551 |
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| Author: | ge13031 [ Fri Jan 18, 2002 11:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Antiques and the FRA |
How do you get a "blue card" on ancient equipment ? For example: loco 715 is former Interstate Public Service freight motor 715, converted to diesel electric by Greenville MFG in 1941. The engine is an original Cummins L (250hp) coupled to a converted LSERY rotary converter for a generator. The body was shortened by 16ft and very heavy H-beams were installed as the engine/gen bed. There are no interior bulkheads and the body retains the original window and door arrangements. The brake system is the original M-23 WABCO. The trucks are Baldwin AA and retain the original gearing, while the wheels have steel tires pressed on. Steps and grabirons are the original configuration. The locomotive is fully operational with independant and automatic air brakes. It is an air start and has been used to switch up to 14 loaded gravel cars at the Fort Jefferson Quarry. My questions are; (1)Is there any hope of getting a blue card? (2) Do we set it aside as an exhibit? (3) Do we scrap it for parts? Your opinions please lamontdc@adelphia.net |
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| Author: | C. Wylde [ Fri Jan 18, 2002 12:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
> My questions are; (1)Is there any hope of > getting a blue card? (2) Do we set it aside > as an exhibit? (3) Do we scrap it for parts? > Your opinions please Can you operate in an insular fashion? Are there no grade crossings where you operate? If yes to the above, FRA may have nothing to do with your situation. In other words, if you are in your yard or your own insular right-of-way, there is question whether FRA has oversight authority. (Notice I didn't say they don't, just that there are questions.) wyld@oc-net.com |
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| Author: | ge13031 [ Fri Jan 18, 2002 12:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
Darn! I forgot to mention .. we are on an FRA controlled railroad! lamontdc@adelphia.net |
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| Author: | Randy Hees [ Fri Jan 18, 2002 1:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
There are two questions here, one an overt technical/economic question about railroad regulation, which has nothing to do with preservation, and a second, unasked question about what your group (organization or commercial enterprise, its not clear which) is about. I would need to leave the issue of what it would take to get a "blue card" to others, but It is likely that the FRA would require some level of modification to get it (new lights, different grabs, removal of front steps along with othersÂ…) This is reasonable, as the FRA is there to assure safety. I would also need to question why any operating railroad would want to fuss with a kluge like this. If you are an operating railroad, making income (and hopefully profit) by moving goods or people by rail this would very likely be a unreliable, expensive headache. On the other hand if you are a railroad preservation organization, then a whole different set of concerns are raised. Assuming you are a preservation organization I would suggest you look to how this piece fits into your groups goals (based on a mission statement, a collection goal, or other base philosophy) As a museum, this car may have a local history, or it may demonstrate how railroad technology evolved and adapted, or it may be so modified that it best use is as parts for other preserved equipment (there are lots of trolley museums which need trucks for various "chicken coops") Finally, the options you listed: operation, static display or scraping, left out one very important option, preservation elsewhere. Randy Hees Society for the Preservation of Carter Railroad Resources http://spcrr.org hees@ix.netcom.com |
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| Author: | Randall Hicks [ Fri Jan 18, 2002 2:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
> My questions are; (1)Is there any hope of > getting a blue card? (2) Do we set it aside > as an exhibit? (3) Do we scrap it for parts? > Your opinions please You should scrap it for parts. Your buddy Norm still needs those trucks for the Michigan car! |
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| Author: | JohnB [ Fri Jan 18, 2002 3:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
The railroad that operates the locomotive is responsible for issueing the "bluecard" to a locomotive. The card is issued once a full inspection has been performed and the locomotive is found to be compliant with all parts of the CFR that may apply. This would include the section on locomotive inspection, power brakes and drawbar, safety appliances, glazing, etc. Any items that are non-compliant and you may wish to retain for historical purposes, for example the lack of corner steps or lack of FRA glazing, you will need to apply for a waiver. That is pretty much it in a nutshell. The FRA places the responsibility for compliance on the railroad. You may want to talk with the local FRA MP&E inspector to determine areas where you may have problems with your particular locomotive. Most of the inspectors I have met have been helpful if you have an attitude that compliance is a good thing. shaymech@hotmail.com |
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| Author: | Pete [ Fri Jan 18, 2002 10:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
> The brake system is the > original M-23 WABCO. >The locomotive . . [has]. . independant and automatic air brakes. These two statements are mutually contradictive. The M-23 motorman's brake valve has no straight air positions (nor is "M-23" a brake system). For there to be separate control of the locomotive and train brakes, there also must be a straight air valve (which isn't an "independent"), a double check vale, and a triple valve. What kinds are these? This will tell you what brake system you have (AMM, AMU, AML, AMT, AMR, AMS, AM-other, or an imitation of SWA). Knowing this will help when dealing with the FRA--they are a bit gunshy around this old stuff. |
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| Author: | ge13031 [ Sat Jan 19, 2002 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
Sorry Pete: I no longer have the wabco sheet for this system. A more accurate statement would be a brake system using the M-23 brake valve. The positions for this valve run: Release Straight air application Automatic lap Automatic service Emergency Since we plan to install this equipment on another car the question becomes; Does anyone out there have FRA compliant ex-interurban equipment operating today. Thanks lamontdc@adelphia.net |
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| Author: | Brian Norden [ Sat Jan 19, 2002 3:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
Brake schedule has to do with the underfloor valve. What is the valve, a traction triple or a traction universal and of what kind? Brian Norden > Sorry Pete: I no longer have the wabco sheet > for this system. A more accurate statement > would be a brake system using the M-23 brake > valve. The positions for this valve run: > Release > Straight air application > Automatic lap > Automatic service > Emergency > Since we plan to install this equipment on > another car the question becomes; Does > anyone out there have FRA compliant > ex-interurban equipment operating today. > Thanks bnorden49@earthlink.net |
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| Author: | Pete [ Sun Jan 20, 2002 11:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
> Sorry Pete: I no longer have the wabco sheet > for this system. A more accurate statement > would be a brake system using the M-23 brake > valve. The positions for this valve run: > Release > Straight air application > Automatic lap > Automatic service > Emergency This is the problem: an M-23 valve *does not* have straight air positions. M-22s and M-24s do. If this really is an M-23 (i.e. there is a plate on the valve saying so), and you have straight air on the "locomotive", then there has to be separate a straight air valve, from which the brake cylinder pipe will lead to a double check vavle, which then leads to the brake cylinder. If you could post pictures of the triple and this "M-23" valve it would help immensely. If there is no straight air valve, then this is essentially the A-1 schedule of 1890, and there is only train air on the locomotive--no straight air. The sequence of positions for M22s and M24s, L to R: Release (automatic and straight air) Straight air Lap (and slow automatic release) Straight air Application (with automatic lap) Automatic Lap Service (Automatic Application) (Handle off, M22 only) Handle off (M24 only) Emergency For M-23s: Release Holding Handle off Lap Service Emergency Is the triple mounted on the pressure head of the brake cylinder? > Since we plan to install this equipment on > another car the question becomes; Does > anyone out there have FRA compliant > ex-interurban equipment operating today. > Thanks All museums which are non-insular have them. This old stuff falls under the "system not listed" category, which has an 18 or 15 month COTS interval. |
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| Author: | ge13031 [ Mon Jan 21, 2002 8:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
Pete: I will be on-site tues. or wed. I will try to find out info on all castings. Thanks for your help!!! lamontdc@adelphia.net |
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| Author: | Pete [ Mon Jan 21, 2002 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
> Pete: I will be on-site tues. or wed. I will > try to find out info on all castings. Thanks > for your help!!! Got to thinking about an easier way to identify things: the numbers on the largest castings, like the number which follows the WA symbol on the body casting of the triple valve. These are pattern numbers, and I can cross refrence them. Try not to use the number off a cap or cover because these are sometimes used on more than one piece of apparatus. |
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| Author: | ge13031 [ Wed Jan 23, 2002 4:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
Pete: I got a chance to look at the system 1. the brake valve is an M-22 2. the feed valve is T9102 3. the brake cylinder is 14x12 4. the only thing I can find on the valve that bolts on the triple valve is "RC" the rest is pat. dates 5. the next valve has a T12553 on the bottom and "8A" on the top 6. There is a check valve marked "C1" T10928 7. There is a fitting marked "C" T8254 8. There is a double pipe shutoff valve T6248 Can you do anything with this ? Thanks lamontdc@adelphia.net |
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| Author: | Pete [ Thu Jan 24, 2002 12:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
> Pete: I got a chance to look at the system > 1. the brake valve is an M-22 This means that there is straight and train air. > 2. the feed valve is T9102 This is a B-6 feed valve. Is this bolted onto the base of the brake valve? > 3. the brake cylinder is 14x12 The car this stuff is off of probably weighed in the 110,000 pound range--in other words a motor car. > 4. the only thing I can find on the valve > that bolts on the triple valve is > "RC" the rest is pat. dates The triple valve either bolts onto the pressue head of the brake cylider or a pipe bracket somewhere. What is this valve that "bolts onto the triple"? a magnet valve? > 5. the next valve has a T12553 on the bottom > and "8A" on the top No listing. "Next" valve??? > 6. There is a check valve marked > "C1" T10928 C-1 strainer and check valve. This is probably in a 3/8" line between the double ported cut-out cock (listed below) and the connection in the triple valve pipe braket on the brake cylinder pressure head. > 7. There is a fitting marked "C" > T8254 No listing > 8. There is a double pipe shutoff valve > T6248 No listing, but this is a typical feature in an interurban brake system. The larger pipe is the brake pipe, and the smaller is the control pipe, which is necessary for graduated release. > Can you do anything with this ? Thanks Still need the number off the body of the triple. I beleive you have the AMM (or similar) control pipe system. The M-22 brake valve, if it doesn't have an equalizing piston, is recommended for use in trains of no more than 3 cars, with eq piston, 5 cars. It was superseded by the M-24 sometime around 1913. |
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| Author: | ge13031 [ Thu Jan 24, 2002 8:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antiques and the FRA |
Pete: I mistyped again! What must be the triple valve does bolt on the pressure side of the brake cylinder and is marked "RC", I will have to do some more cleaning. The mystery valve (8A, T12553) is seperate and has several pipes (1) goes to the bottom of the triple valve in the square body next to the brake cylinder(2) goes to the pressure side of the brake cylinder[12 o'clock position] and has a pop valve in the line (3) goes to the piston side of the triple valve (4) goes up into the car body. Oh for a pix! Interstate Public Service 715 (from which the loco was built) was an express freight motor built by AC&F in 1925(?). It was built to train with IPS big steel passenger motors and carries the same motors and gearing. I don't even know if the system was reinstalled properly when the rebuild was done ... I would like to get a piping diagram if possible? lamontdc@adelphia.net |
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