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Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25555		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  k5ahudson [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
I've been looking for the PPG paint number for Pullman Green. I've searched through the archives of this forum and found way back in 2003 Tim Meyer posted PPG #81649 was Pullman Green. I also found the same paint number on Railfonts.com. Our PPG paint rep looked into this and he found that this number is a yellow colour. Is this correct number? Is there a different or updated number? Please help ASAP. Thanks very much.
Author:  David Johnston [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
I cannot help with the PPG number for Pullman Color. But I do know that Pullman Color is not green, it is a very dark yellow. So it is likely that PPG would list it as a yellow, not a green.
Author:  Brian Norden [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
We've had discussions here about the Pullman color. Use the search function for this board.

Like many passenger train colors it could have been called an "olive" color. But there are many different kinds of "olive" -- some are more yellow, some more brown, some more green, etc.

Even depending on the lighting conditions the same color will appear different. This was discussed in a prior thread about the Pullman color.
Author:  Bob Kutella [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
From my memory the Pullman Green is made by mixing yellow and black. Ask the PPG guy for a sample, or maybe with todays technology they can do a 'virtual' mix on a computer to predict a mix, and let you know if you are in the right ballpark.

Bob Kutella
Author:  Randy Hees [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
Pullman color is a moving target… In the 1870’s and 1880’s it is reported to be made by mixing raw umber and burnt umber, occasionally with the addition of lamp black or a little chrome green… All in a linseed oil base. It was a browner color in this period, similar to UPS brown.

It appears to shift towards green and possibly darker, in a series of moves… many debuted on trainsets built for display at various World’s Fairs.

The exact date of the use of the dark green (still linseed oil based) we all know and love seems to be about 1900 give or take 5 years.

Sometime in the 1920’s it would have been reformulated as automotive enamel. (no longer linseed oil) It is possible the color changed during this process… This would also be the first time that the color(s) would be assigned recognizable paint formula numbers.

It seems that virtually each railroad had its own mix with its own formula numbers (one for Dulux, one for the PPG equivalent, and probably several others), but it also appears from studies of paint numbers that some of these are circular references, suggesting very similar colors.

Of course, modern paint technology had made many of the older formula numbers obsolete, with no modern equivalent…

While some of us (including myself) will continue to study the subject to death, discussing the variations, I suspect that for post 1930’s cars one or two mixes will work for most heavyweights…
Author:  fkrock [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
My understanding is that pigments in Pullman green paint were chrome yellow and carbon black. Chrome yellow pigment is lead chromate so no longer is used in paints. Chrome yellow pigment came in several different shades ranging from light orange to lemon yellow. Only recently has the paint industry been able to get an organic yellow pigment that matches the intense saturated yellow color of chrome yellow. That's why for so many years yellow cabs probably should have been called cream cabs because the yellow paint faded so rapidly. How these new pigments will weather only time will tell.

Many green colors contained chrome yellow pigment so they no loinger are available. Other green pigments used arsenates so they also are banned.

I understand that the Pullman Company used several different shades of paint for their cars. Pullman would try to match the coach green color used by the railroad where their car would operate.

Chrome yellow is still available in artist oil paints if you wish to experiment with color. Even One-Shot yellow sign paint no longer uses chrome yellow pigment.

So basically your problem is to match a paint color that used pigment that no longer is available. Old paint numbers are worthless. Adding black to a modern yellow pigment may produce a color different from Pullman green. Good luck.
Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
All this history is all well and good, but what the man asked for was a current paint number for a Pullman green. Here is a link to a write-up of some work MTM recently did; halfway down is a table that shows the original DuPont Dulux number, and a modern Imron number that is an "industrial" match.

http://www.erixrailcar.com/restoration/2008/

I recall from my days of painting at IRM that were buying a PPG Ditzler automotive enamel named "Great Northern Railway Pullman Green" but I'll be damned if I ever kept the number. We were still buying this in the mid seventies, so it had been reformulated after that round of heavy metal reductions. The above link is the only one that a Google search on the Ditzler color name brings up.
Author:  Ted Anderson [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
The reason for the confusion is that there werw a number of "Pullman Greens" depending upon the railroad and the era. That is the unfortunate effect that we are constantky faced with, to the ignorance of newcomers. Bob Kutella could have told you from his DuPont paint chips that there are more than one as already discussed. I have decided that the original reason for Pullman Green was to hide the inevitable accumulation of steam engine grime, mud and dust blast. I have a gallon of Dulux 11 "Pullman Green" that I found in a container at IRM. According to Arthur Dubin, if you are copying CN or Great Northern it might be appropriate. Get the picture? Also, my memory is faulty. I just try to match the original shade on the B&M cars at IRM (1906). You should be aware also that Pullman had two formulations, "old" and "new" according to a lady at Sherwin-Williams some years ago (bet her position has been eliminated - any willing to make the contact?). So there you are. Choose a shade of fade and go!
Ted Anderson
Author:  Brian Norden [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  A correction or an apology
Sorry, that I did not completely reread the original posting when I read Dave Johnson's response. I have been advised that the original poster did state that he had looked at the archives of this forum.
Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A correction or an apology
More Pullman green numbers. These are from a web page maintained by Tim Meyer <fl10wheeler@verizon.net> of material compiled by John Lee of Badger Airbrush Co. and the late George Rust of DuPont:

http://www.railfonts.com/Reference/paint_cross.pdf

It's an interesting list, well worth printing and saving. Some of the colors have alternate suppliers, and some seem to be current, such as Imron numbers.

Here's the Pullman greens:

Pullman Green; Pullman Old; DuPont 1547
Pullman Green; Pullman New; DuPont 1548
Pullman Green; Pullman Dark; DuPont 1550
Pullman Green; Pullman; DuPont 4558; PPG 42791
Pullman Green; Pullman; Dulux 88 5502; PPG 81649

There are also other "Pullman" greens attributed to various railroads throughout the list.

Hope this helps. Please report back if PPG can work with any of these numbers.
Author:  fltenwheeler [ Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
k5ahudson wrote:
I've been looking for the PPG paint number for Pullman Green. I've searched through the archives of this forum and found way back in 2003 Tim Meyer posted PPG #81649 was Pullman Green. I also found the same paint number on Railfonts.com. Our PPG paint rep looked into this and he found that this number is a yellow colour. Is this correct number? Is there a different or updated number? Please help ASAP. Thanks very much.


Hi

I have a drift card that I painted with PPG 42791. It looks like Pullman Green to me.

I would purchase a small sample of paint and see if it is what you want. Everyones eyes are differnt.

Tim
Author:  Bobharbison [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
When I see these discussions of "what is Pullman Green" I wonder how close we'll ever get. As others have mentioned, it's definitely a moving target. Back in those days I wonder how the paint was mixed and how well it matched even when new. Consider that it was mixed by hand, using various ingredients, and who knows how consistent they were. Then you have the question of just how accurately the components were measured when mixing. Add in lighting conditions, and weathering and sun and you probably end up with a huge variety.

I think folks think it's like automobiles, where they all match exactly, and seafoam green from a 1965 Hypemobile can be easily and accurately replicated (or can it? Maybe they have the same problem)

What I'm picturing is a whole line of Railbox boxcars I once saw stored in a siding on the BNSF. As we went past the mile or more of cars it was very interesting to see the amazing variation in cars that were supposedly all "Railbox Yellow". I saw everything from Cat Old Gold to peach to lemon yellow to chalk orange to who knows what... Good luck to the museum 50 years from now that tries to replicate an Rbox. ;)
Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
fltenwheeler wrote:
Hi

I have a drift card that I painted with PPG 42791. It looks like Pullman Green to me.

I would purchase a small sample of paint and see if it is what you want. Everyones eyes are differnt.

Tim


I don't think it's a matter that the original poster was worried about matching any specific shade of Pullman green, indeed that might actually be easier, because when I talked to DuPont Performance coatings about five years ago, they were quicker to just say, "send us a sample and we'll match it..." than to try to locate an archival drift card so they could match the historic color.

It appears that the original poster just wants to order paint by number, sight unseen, and have it not be banana yellow. I note that the PPG #42791 is what is listed in Tim's spread sheet under the Great Northern for "Pullman green". If it is the same as the PPG color we used at IRM some thirty years ago, it is a nice somewhat yellow shade of Pullman green that has gotten a bit darker over the intervening decades. It is indeed Pullman green, and no one should complain about it.
Author:  Peter Nicholson [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pullman Green..... AGAIN!
When the Pullman Company stopped operating sleeping cars in 1969, they received more than a few inquiries requesting memorabilia or authentic Pullman supplies. This correspondence is in the Pullman collection at the Newberry Library in Chicago. One of the requests was for the paint numbers for "Pullman Green". The answer was:

1. PPG #66571
2. Minnesota Paints #7030-10

These would obviously be the last truly authentic versions of the color.

As a side note, you can also learn from this file that the majority of the real Pullman blankets were sold to Church World Service (a charity that still exists today) for $2 each.
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