Shot these images a couple of weeks ago at the CMSI. Although I've been there before, it was my first time seeing the Zephyr underground. A wonderful display that looks great and now includes hydraulics that gently rock the train once you are inside.(anyone know if the planners designed a future route of egress for it?)

The reproduction "1361" cab display, still THE most popular exhibit in the hall! A steady stream of parents stood by as their kids jumped into the cab to play engineer. How many museums have something similar and how expensive is it to create?

nice pics! :)

they should really fabricate new drivers for 999 to restore her to her original appearance:



(her original tall drivers were replaced after she made her famous 1893 run, because the drivers werent practical for "regular" service..the original drivers were then lost/scrapped.)

Scot

I think 999 would also need a new frame, for proper driver spacing.

Yeah, that Pioneer Zeph engineer's seat looks like a real great place to be approaching a grade crossing at 75 mph..... Kind of like an English sports car of the 50s, you have to "strap it on" and be a contortionist to get in and out, and not quickly, either. The GG1s were about as tight, but there was a lot more metal between the crew and "stuff".

Great exhibits and display areas-- looks like what we all should aspire to.

Howard P.

I've always thought that would be a really neat project. What's the group's opinion of the historical "correctness" of such a restoration?

Great pictures of a great museum. Although this endowed institution has a large staff and is a major tourist magnet, it is interesting to note that the issues MSI has to address are similar to those experienced by all railway museums.
1. It took the expensive step getting its collection indoors, including the Zephyr and the U-505. While they certainly have great resources to do so, these aren’t pole barns we’re talking about. They simply bit the bullet.
2. The Zephyr display area actually addresses several concerns. It provided an ADA accessible entrance to the museum and indoor parking. At the time they stated (and I agree), “the museum experience begins in the parking lot.” As an aside, the underground lot was built with federal funds as an “intermodal facility.” There has been speculation that the trainset was put into the facility because the mode change between autos and walking was a rather weak justification for the grant. Better to add another mode, even if it’s static.
3. You may have noticed major construction for new displays, mostly on the second floor. The old push button exhibits don’t cut it with Generation X-box. The high graphics content of the new exhibits, however, created a problem. Most of the building was not air conditioned. After they budgeted the new plan and raised contributed capital, they found that heat from the electronics exceed standards. So they had to add HVAC, a major project cost over-run that will add to ongoing operating costs.
4. MSI only had toilets in the basement. That too is being fixed.
5. MSI deaccessioned ATSF 2903 when they determined that they couldn’t properly care for it. It fit well with their collection and despite a remote outdoor display area was very popular. A willingness to part with things that cannot properly be preserved and interpreted may be the true mark of a top-notch institution.
6. A major project was to improve “way-finding.” Signage and maps can always be improved.
7. When the new entrance was built, the museum store was reduced in size, as I recall, about 15%, but sales went up 20%. The new space was better situated in the traffic flow, more attractive and highly visible. Bigger isn’t always better.

Mind boggling, actually.

The reproduction "1361" cab display, still THE most popular exhibit in the hall! A steady stream of parents stood by as their kids jumped into the cab to play engineer. How many museums have something similar and how expensive is it to create?


Here at Henry Ford Museum we have a cab visible for perusing. It just has the rest of the 1601 attached to it.

The problem with re-building the 999 back to its original high-stepping appearance (apart from the obvious cost of casting four new 89" drivers) is the fact that it's not just the drivers - or even the rest of the wheels - that were replaced over the years. Compare the two photos of her in this thread, the shape of the boiler and position of the steam dome is completely different. We may never know whether or not 999 ever actually reached 112 mph, but it's absolutely certain that most of the engine you see today never did.

Greetings:
I restored No. 999 in 1993 prior to and in preparation for it being moved into the museum.
Aside from the number there is little left of No. 999 of 1893: at most the cylinders and frame. It even lost it's number when it recieved one of it's new boilers. The tender (similar to original) was rescued from work train service for the 1930s' restoration...
Speaking of the U-505, I set up shop under it and used it for shelter while doing boiler jacket fabrication and painting on the No.999.
J.David

My feeling is that in rebuilding 999, the historical fabric of the locomotive is lost. She was high drivered, then changed to the current. Replacing the drivers as they are today undoes history. Since nobody seems to know which locomotive the K4s cab originated from, there was a discussion in this forum concerning it, about 6 years ago. It is thought to have actually come from a G5s. I wish we knew which! There is also the valve gear and cylinder arrangement from an Atlantic (not PRR). While a top flight museum, perhaps one of the best on earth, how I wish a full NYC Hudson or K4s had made its way into the indoor collection. A wonderful place; did you check out the space wing too? They have Scott Carpenter's Mercury capsule, "Aurora 7" and Apollo 8, as well as the lunar EVA suit to have been worn by Jim Lovell on the ill-fated Apollo 13 mission.

The Chicago Museum of science and Industry is a fine institution. But when I visited I ran into a mind set that bothered me.

Even though they have several large and small railroad artifacts they do not consider themselves a railroad or transportation museum.

It was only recently that they are shown in the annual Tourist Guide to railroad Museums.

There were no post cards or other rail items for sale in their museum store. This may have changed as you say the store has been re-done.

When the staff of a museum does not appreciate their own artifacts; then they will be swept aside or at least not get the attention that they would get in a rail theme museum.

If you are in the Chicago area take the time and trouble to visit the Illinois Railway Museum. They have the Nebraska Zypher, IC 201 operated by Casey Jones And so much else besides! They think of themselves as a railroad museum!

I will now be stepping down from my soapbox.

Ted Miles

Rather than trying to re-rebuild 999, why not fabricate at least one driving wheel and then set it up where you can see the difference between the current driving wheels and what the original would have been like. At the Wright-Pat Air Force Museum they have a huge US Bomber (don't remember the designation number) When originally built they had single huge tires for landing/takeoff. Quickly learned several smaller tires grouped together were better. At the museum they have one of the original tires next to one of the landing gear group of tires. Makes for a dramatic difference and scene. I think having a wheel of approximately the right size near the driving wheels of the 999 would make for a nice contrast, give a good idea of the difference and would not require any re-rebuilding of the loco. Seperated a little from the loco would allow photographers to still photograph the current locomotive. Would also possibly start conversations on how and why locomotives where rebuilt over the years. Which would be a good educational aspect for the exhibit and the museum.

Ted,
I would respectfully submit that Chicago's MSI is not a transportation museum of any kind, despite the large number of transportation exhibits, rail-related and otherwise.
I would guess that their inclusion in the Tourist Railroad guidebook is simply another avenue to bring in attention, guests, and related revenues.

MSI is as it's name implies a museum of Science and Industry, I beleive the intent is to show how science and industry have combined over the years to get us all to our current level of "comfort" and "modernization". If anything, I think MSI actually fails a bit from that perspective (at least on the railroad front), they don't really show the progression from the NYC 999, to the Pioneer Zephyr, thru "modern" steam locomotives, all the way to today's diesels. I beleive this could be relatively easily and quickly rectified by use of commonly available model railroad items and related signage, something I'd like to see rail-related museums do more of as well.

At the end, MSI is definitely worth the visit, even if you were hoping for more rail related offerings, but if you have a rail only agenda, then clearly IRM is the single best place to spend a day in the area (Taking nothing away from any of the other
opportunities within the area, simply IRM has more to see than almost everyone else combined)

The idea of replicating one of the original size drivers for the 999 is a good one. Since the loco is indoors it doesn't even have to be a metal casting, it could be a wooden replica. But as already posted, there isn't much left of the original. It was given lower drivers and then a few years later a totally different boiler. Now it is just the ghost of what it once was.

Why bother? A single driver mock-up would be totally out of context, and there isn't even the room to back up and put it in perspective with the engine. As It is, the plaque that goes with the display gives the history, points out the fact that the engine was rebuilt with smaller drivers shortly after the speed run, and reproduces the photo that has been posted several times in this discussion, or one substantially similar. In all, it's more information than the general public wants, or can absorb for that matter. It is much better marked than most the other items in the room, including the PRR cab.

I think it's fine just the way it is. "Real" railroad museums should be so lucky to have the facility, and the budget to work with that Chicago's MSI has. Then again maybe they would if they didn't try to save every piece of junk on the planet.