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Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25925		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
The boiler of #39 is now at the Strasburg Railroad shops, being rebuilt for some of the same issues that sank the K4s project at Steamtown. For an excellent report with photos, go to the following link on the LIRR Discussion forum.

http://lirr.thermomods.com/index.php/topic,1818.0.html
Author:  Dave Lewandoski [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
glad it went to Strausburg. thanks for the info
Author:  bbunge [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
Are the support rods shown in the photos unique to Belpaire fireboxes? For that matter, what advantage did PRR see in the Belpaire design?

Thanks in advance!

Bob
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
Better question yet:

I believe that we are to assume that the exact same "design flaws" that turned up in PRR 1361 are present in the two surviving LIRR G5 boilers and the boiler of the PRR G5 in the RR Museum of Pa. (I know the PRR K4s and L1s share identical boilers.)

If such assumption is correct, what options exist to make any boiler of this design "up to code" by modern operational regulations, if any? It sounds to me like the options are:
*Not to restore such a boiler;
*Add something to the boiler (thicken some metal, add more stays, whatever);
*get some kind of exemption or waiver;
*operate at reduced pressure or other such operational modification;
*ignore it and pray/offer sacrifices/whatever;
*something else entirely which you'll tell us about, possibly involving "unobtanium".
Author:  Canada Ron [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Belpaire advantgage
It add's about 20% heating surface to firebox heating surface .
Author:  tomgears [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
It looks like she is going to burn oil. We might see more and more of this in the future.
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
#39 is being retrofitted to burn oil. Her rebuilt tender and oil bunker are finished, and sitting off-trucks, at Riverhead, Long Island, as is the frame and other running gear. RMLI needs a great deal of support to get this project finished, so once again I make the appeal to anyone who has the ability to either do serious locomotive work or write a check, to get behind the G5 effort. This will likely be the next (only?) Pennsy locomotive to run again for a long, long, time.

Oyster Bay Rail Road Museum (Friends of 35) are also working to secure major funding to have their G5s, #35, rebuilt for operation. Current projects include needle scaling the frame and keep the moving parts lubed and ready for re-application. Still, #35 is probably years from re-assembly. The main objective of this group is to prevent decay of what they already own and to make the historic Oyster Bay station a landmark museum. This group makes steady progress each weekend, and at the end of each working year, show measurable progress.

Again, individuals who yearn to photograph those standard PRR/LIRR smokeboxes, with live steam bringing steel to life, need to actively get behind these efforts. Any donations made to the steam restoration funds will eventually, pay dividends. In the meanwhile, you can see restoration in progress at Strasburg shops.
Author:  Schuylkill Valley [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
Why did you convert the G5s to burn oil? when the price of oil is so high.

Len.
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
Part of the funding grant to rehab the locomotive required oil conversion, due to the environmental concerns surrounding coal and coal ash. I haven't worked the numbers, but in the end, it's likely an economical move. Railfans don't necessarily like it, but the choice is to burn oil or leave her cold. Which would you make?
Lastly, nobody is tossing out her grates!
Author:  Schuylkill Valley [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
Well contact your local Auto Repair shops and burn uses oil, Oil is oil.

Len.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
Schuylkill Valley wrote:
Why did you convert the G5s to burn oil? when the price of oil is so high.


Checked the price of locomotive-quality coal lately? I'm sure a few folks here will be happy to fill you in with an update.

Used motor oil? Around here, that's the latest stuff getting stolen from those hapless enough to leave it unprotected. Even used cooking oil is getting stolen from restaurant back lots.
Author:  superheater [ Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
"Part of the funding grant to rehab the locomotive required oil conversion, due to the environmental concerns surrounding coal and coal ash. I haven't worked the numbers"

Who is underwriting the funding?

What environmental concerns? (its not like oil is natural gas)
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
Super-duper & others: I suggest anyone with specific questions get in touch with those people directly involved with the project. I don't want to give any incorrect information. The conversion was stipulated in the grant.
Author:  Dave [ Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Long Island Rail Road G5s #39 update report
Whatever the actual environmental considerations, oil seems an easy choice for many operators due to the availability of oil loading facilities. The same truck that delivers fuel to industrial users can deliver it to your locomotive. Coal handling facilities are not nearly as available now as they were in 1955. Also oil fires can be regulated to provide a clear or almost clear stack (if the combustion system is well designed and installed) and can be regulated instantly to adapt to variations in the load, all of which makes visible smoke concerns much less of a PR hassle. Oil won't leave clinker and ash behind to be disposed of.

The conversion is reversable without making any major alterations to the existing fabric.

It isn't really all that much of a compromise, and makes the average citizen (whose support is of greatest concern) feel much greener.

dave
Author:  Doug Debs 2472 [ Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Steam locomotive oil fuel cost
Oil-burning steam locomotives traditionally burned heavy oil, such as "Bunker C", which is like sticky tar at room temperature, but flows like hot maple syrup when heated. The oil bunker has steam-heat piping inside. Standard temp gauge is the back of your hand on the oil bunker - if it's almost too hot for your hand, then the oil viscosity and flammability is just right for the burner.

Bunker C fuel was practical when roundhouses had "house steam" (often from an old engine with tired running gear, but a good boiler) piped to every roundhouse stall. This kept the other locomotives' boilers hot, and heating the fuel tank was just a matter of turning on a steam valve.

The "fuel filter" in the oil bunker filler hatch is same as the smokebox netting... any chunks smaller than about 1/8" go right through the filer and the burner. This is far different than diesel engines, where fuel cleanliness is essential; algae (which grows inside diesel tanks!), fine particles of dirt, and sludge can clog the filters, and don't exactly improve the injectors.

Nowadays most operating steam locomotives do not have a auxilliary steam source to heat the oil bunker, so lighter fuel oil is used that will flow at the lowest bunker temp expected. (Here in the the San Francisco Bay Area, 4-6-2 S.P. 2472's oil bunker never cools below 45-50 degrees F, even though it's stored outdoors. 4,000 gallons of oil and tons of steel doesn't heat up or cool down quickly, and snow is nearly unknown.) We burn recycled lube oil. The oil recycler centrifuges the waste oil (used heavy gear oil, etc) to remove the toxic anti-wear & anti-corrosion additives, and any water, tests the result, and then sells it as burnable petroleum oil. S.P. 2472 burns this very cleanly, as shown on photos of the Labor Day weekend operations on http://www.Trainorders.com, "Steam Railroading" discussion board (any black smoke is for runbys, and most runbys were just shy of a clear stack). Fuel oil cost about $1.25/gallon including delivery, when regular gasoline cost over $4.00/gallon. We figure on 0.7-1.0 gallons/car/mile for fuel oil, and 50-90 seats/car, so fuel oil costs are not the major driving expense in steam locomotive operation. Also there are no cinders to clean up or start brush fires (a major concern here when the grass turns from green to "golden" in the late Spring).

- Doug Debs
Golden Gate Railroad Museum http://www.ggrm.org
& Niles Canyon Railway http://www.ncry.org
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