Believe it or not, this is NOT about Pullman Green! ;)

I dont actually care about the exact shade of green right now..im looking for info on the rest of the paint scheme, apart from the green..

Im doing some research on the 1896 edition of the Lehigh Valley Railroad's "Black Diamond Express"..the first version of this train.

The consist was built by Pullman, wood construction, in 1896, here are two of the Pullman builders photos:





Does anyone know what color the roof and trucks/undercarriage would have been?
was there a "standard pullman scheme" of the era that every railroad would get?
or could railroads order custom paintschemes by then?

im sure the pullman observation matched the scheme of the rest of the train..
there was a cafe car, two coaches, and the observation.

I believe the overall color was (some flavor) of Pullman green..whatever shade of green was being used in the 1890's..but I have no idea what the roof and undercarriage/truck color would have been..black? oxide red? same green as the coach body?

Does anyone know what Pullman was doing then?

and..are there any preserved pullman cars of this era (1890's) anywhere?

thanks!
Scot

Thanks TR..

hmmm..interesting about the Pullman brown...
now I need to determine if Pullman gave that color to everybody,
or if railroads were picking their own color schemes by that time..

(remember, this isnt even the 20th century yet! ;) fancy paintschemes, different for every railroad, was not the norm yet..)

thanks!
Scot

Wasn't Lehigh Valley traditionally red, or maroon? I don't think the roads were defalting to Pullman's color choice at that early date; Pullman was still very much the tail trying to wag the dog at that point. Before it became easier to just copy Pullman so everything matched without any further thought, there were a lot of roads that were using deep reds, maroons and Tuscans. I know the Wisconsin Central was, and the Soo Line started shortly after Finney went from the WC to the Soo, and there is some evidence that the CP thought the Soo's maroon was a good idea when they got tired of trying to maintain natural varnished mahogany on their cars. I would suspect that the Pennsy had already adopted their Tuscan color by that point. Just how far back does Cornell Red go on the LV, anyway?

Lacking any builder's documents, and I don't think the information in the Pullman collection at IRM goes back quite that far, a good source for color information is historical newspaper accounts of new trains going on public display. Since reporters were always trying to build a mental picture in their reader's mind, phrases such as "rich olive green" and "deep wine red" are common in these accounts. They will also often note if the striping is gold or aluminum, the color of the art glass windows, and even possibly the roof color if it was anything notable.

I wonder if the Anthracite Railroads Historical Society would have any info? I can't seem to find a good URL for them.

Thanks Dennis,
good idea about checking historic newspaper articles..
I plan to visit the Rochester and Buffalo libraries soon, see if I can dig up some newspaper accounts of the day..

As for the famous LV Reds, Cornell Reds, and Tuscans, those were MUCH later..

I do know that the LV used pullman green for all its passenger trains in the 1910's through the 1940's..but this train is SO early that the Pullman green was possibly not even in use yet.

Red was not seen on the LV until about 1939.

The first use of Red by the LV was in 1939, on the new streamlined editions of the John Wilkes passenger train, and then the updated 1940 edition of the Black Diamond Express, using the streamlined Pacifics:

http://www.easternoscalers.com/lvwilkes_loco.jpg

and on some of the early diesel switchers of the late 1930's and early 40's:



(incidentally, that engine above, LV 112, is the oldest known surviving LV locomotive, and is going to be restored soon to that 1939 "pre war" scheme! :)

Then when the Alco PA's arrived in 1948, all passenger cars were switched over to solid "Cornell Red" to match the PA's, and that scheme lasted until the end of the passenger era.

Red was much more common in the LV diesel era than in the steam era.

But the version of the Black Diamond Express im interested in here, the original 1896 edition, is much earlier than the "Red Era" of the LV..
So its not likely this train was any flavor of Red..
probably either that Pullman brown, or perhaps a green.

im sure the data is "out there" somewhere..I just need to find it! :)
im working on a webpage about the 1896 Black Diamond, I will post the link when I have it uploaded.

thanks,
Scot

My understanding is that the brown was the standard color of the Pullman Company in that era. The company made a determination that the olive color was a better color for hiding the dirt and grim and made the change to it.

Some of this information was covered in a thread on this board a couple or so years ago.

Just finished my 1896 LV Black Diamond Express page:

http://gold.mylargescale.com/scottychao ... index.html

This is the train im trying to find the color scheme for..
hence the question about 1896 Pullman colors..

thanks,
Scot

Scot:

Here is a link is a link to a web page entitled "Color in Period Photography." The study was originally conducted to help us in the modern era decipher how colors appear in Civil War era photography. However, I would assume that color doesn't care if it is on a frock coat or a railcar, so this may help you in your quest.

Good Luck!

--Jim

I have been trying to find some Pullman color information that I ran across a few years ago, but I have been unsuccessful.

If I remember correctly, the Clerestory and underbody were painted the same color as the body. The roof was "boxcar red" and the trucks olive.

In 1896 the standard Pullman body color would have been Pullman Brown, the color of a UPS truck. Based on the photos and the history of Pullman colors, my opinion is that the Black Diamond car bodies were Pullman Brown.

Thanks Jim,
but IMO those methods of trying to use the different grey tones in B&W photos to identify original colors is hopeless..and never works.

because you would need to know the specific, exact, film and paper processes used to make the original image..because different films/ chemistrys/wet plates/ etc will all give different grey tones.

and..if the density is off just slightly (the print is printed too light or too dark)
suddenly your "orange" becomes "green"! ;)
..there are just far too many variables for it to be practical.

and.. 100 years of fading and changing of the image is also a factor..
its no good..doesnt work.

It was tried with Mason Bogie paintschemes..one guy thought he had a handle on Mason Bogie paintschemes based on B&W prints..later more data was found that proved he was way off:

http://www.frontiernet.net/~scottychaos ... /Sloan.htm

I work with color, paper and film (at Kodak)..I know quite a bit about the science of photography...IMO trying to get correct colors from 100 year old B&W prints is simply impossible.

Scot

Thanks Stan..
Im starting to believe that the Pullman Brown was in fact the color of the 1896 Black Diamond Express..although Brown, with red roof and olive trucks doesnt sound right!
(at least I HOPE not! ;)
although who knows..those Victorians were into their gaudy colors! ;)
(as seen on the famous "painted lady" victorian houses..)

im still hoping some newspaper accounts will mention the color of the train..
im planning to hit some major libraries in the area..we will see!

thanks,
Scot

One of my to-do model railroad projects is at least one Pullman Brown car with the boxcar red (oxide red) roof and olive trucks but other projects have been more important so far.

If you do decorate a model or make a color drawing using these colors I think you will find the result pleasant, not gaudy.

But, it will be wonderful if you run across documentation that mentions the colors of the Black Diamond Express train.