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Not to get this too far off topic, but I need to ask:

Why is the first F40, or the last one bought new so much more "desirable" or special than the rest? Isn't an F40 an F40, an F40? I don't understand what being the first off of Lagrange's floor (or the alst one) makes them different? I could see if the first one was a prototype, but shouldn't we save the common vs. the oddball?

If you wanted to preserve one, why not look for one with decent wheels, OK electronics, one that isn't beaten to hell and back. Maybe you may not want to operate it today, but who knows what is in store 10-30 years from now? If you have a choice, shouldn't you make the smart choice vs. the emotional choice? Can't really compare an automobile that is sold more on emotion to a locomotive that is sold for utility.

Sort of a dumb question, but did any F40PH's do anything really notable...?

The quality of significance in American history, architecture, archeology, engineering, and culture is present in districts, sites, buildings, structures, and objects that possess integrity of location, design, setting, materials, workmanship, feeling, and association, and:
A. That are associated with events that have made a significant contribution to the broad patterns of our history; or

B. That are associated with the lives of persons significant in our past; or

C. That embody the distinctive characteristics of a type, period, or method of construction, or that represent the work of a master, or that possess high artistic values, or that represent a significant and distinguishable entity whose components may lack individual distinction; or

D. That have yielded or may be likely to yield, information important in prehistory or history.

Author:	RCD [ Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Save the F40PH
I am from eastern Massachusetts and have been trying to perserve a Amtrak F40PH locomotive for some time now but I still have two huge barriers that stand in my way. -Become a non-profit or get a non-profit group to back me. -Find an official home for the F40PH. I really need help in this project and wonder if anyone could help me out here. I have set up a temporary website (untill I can get a better one put up) for more information http://ham549.googlepages.com/home -Thanks, Rowan C. de la Barre

Author:	PaulWWoodring [ Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
From what I see in your list of all Amtrak F40's (and thank you for doing the research on that) is that several are preserved in various places across the country. I'm sorry to see that the first one, #200, was converted to a "cabbage" car. That would have been the most desirable candidate for a museum. The second most desirable one, the last one bought new by Amtrak, #410 (Nos. 411-415 I believe were bought used from GO Transit), would seem to be a prime candidate for a preservation effort, since it's in the hands of scrapper Larry's Truck and Electric, if not already razor blades (not sure how recent the list is). At least two of the OHCR F40's were photographed on the CSX interchange track at Warwick, Ohio several months ago, most likely having been sold. Probably the single most important criteria for preserving an F40 would be to see if one is in original, or nearly original configuration, largely unmodified from initial purchase (like not having been retrofitted with ditch lights). That would be a worthy goal if you were to launch a successful preservation effort. The F40PH has been called, "the locomotive that saved Amtrak" (along with the AEM-7 in the NEC), and I tend to agree with that sentiment. Speaking of which, before they are retired, we ought to think about also preserving a "Swedish Meatball", as well as an example of each type of Amfleet I coach. (This from a former Amtrak OBS cafe attendant who does have a soft spot for the beasts.)

Author:	Joshua K. Blay [ Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
There's three "saved" I'd say. 231 in Oregon. One at the CA RR museum. And one at NCTM. Any others?

Author:	zugmann [ Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
Not to get this too far off topic, but I need to ask: Why is the first F40, or the last one bought new so much more "desirable" or special than the rest? Isn't an F40 an F40, an F40? I don't understand what being the first off of Lagrange's floor (or the alst one) makes them different? I could see if the first one was a prototype, but shouldn't we save the common vs. the oddball? For a locomotive with as many survivors as the F40 (sure they are going, but there's still a bunch around) wouldn't it make more sense to find one that is in the best shape? Ditchlights shouldn't be an issue, either. If you want to restore it to operation, you will NEED ditchlights. And ditchlights were on them for part of their service life, so why would that be a no-no? I'm just trying to understand. PS> I thought you were giving this a rest, Rowan?

Author:	PaulWWoodring [ Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
It's become sort of a convention among many railfan/preservationists to preserve the first or last of something. The last GP40-2 bought by Chessie System, #4447, now CSXT #6341 has been designated for donation to the B&O Museum, as has the last locomotive bought new lettered for B&O, SD50 #8595. So, there is precedence for this. I don't think either F40 #200 before being "cabbaged", or #410 were "oddball" units. As for wanting one largely unmodified from "as delivered", that's a fairly common criteria for collectable value with other kinds of artifacts - like historic automobiles. And if I recall rightly, often the last model of an automobile to be made goes for a premium price, or automatically goes into the manufacturer's collection. I thought I was talking about a museum piece, not a tourist railroad unit. If you want to ride behind one, you can always go to the Grand Canyon Ry., since they've given up on steam, so wanting one that looks original would be a good thing - there's plenty of them WITH ditch lights running around. Besides, if you don't mind slowing down to 20 mph for grade crossings, you don't HAVE to have ditch lights.

Railway Preservation News https://www.rypn.org/forums/

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Author:	eldiner [ Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
zugmann wrote: Not to get this too far off topic, but I need to ask: Why is the first F40, or the last one bought new so much more "desirable" or special than the rest? Isn't an F40 an F40, an F40? I don't understand what being the first off of Lagrange's floor (or the alst one) makes them different? I could see if the first one was a prototype, but shouldn't we save the common vs. the oddball? Maybe if you have a wide range to choose from you can pick the first or last. For the preservation efforts I have been involved in we are usually happy to find ANY example. It happened to work out that one of our diners was on the last westbound Erie Lackawanna passenger train but that wasn't the reason it was chosen - the fact that it existed at all was good enough!

Author:	zugmann [ Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
I understand there is precedence, but I also feel that it is sometimes downright silly. These are machines. If you wanted to preserve one, why not look for one with decent wheels, OK electronics, one that isn't beaten to hell and back. Maybe you may not want to operate it today, but who knows what is in store 10-30 years from now? If you have a choice, shouldn't you make the smart choice vs. the emotional choice? Can't really compare an automobile that is sold more on emotion to a locomotive that is sold for utility. Amtrak and the F40 lifespan didn't end when ditch lights were required. Just one more change the locomotives had to endure to remain in service.

Author:	PaulWWoodring [ Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
My attitude is probably colored by some things in preservation that stand out in my mind. For instance, of the six NKP Berks preserved, only one is not an S2 - S3 #779 (Ah ha, an example of deliberately setting aside the last one built, also Lima's last steam loco, so you get a twofer). None of the earlier ones were saved, no S's, S1's or ex-Wheeling S4's. Of course, compare that to preserved NYC Hudsons, Niagara's, or Erie steam (none of any), and I understand somewhat where you're coming from. Here we have an opportunity to possibly, rationally, chose several examples of a significant and successful model of locomotive to preserve for posterity. It would be nice to find at least one that looks as close to original as possible. That's all I'm saying. Three are already preserved in various places. Not having seen photos of them as-preserved I don't know how they look, if they run, etc., but I'm just saying that one ought to be saved that looks close to the way it did when new. Besides, I always thought the original strobe warning lights were a very distinctive touch. I believe they were only shared with Chessie System, and gave a dramatic touch to the arrival of an Amtrak train on the platform at night, along with the screaming of the lead unit generating HEP.

Author:	Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
zugmann wrote: If you wanted to preserve one, why not look for one with decent wheels, OK electronics, one that isn't beaten to hell and back. Maybe you may not want to operate it today, but who knows what is in store 10-30 years from now? If you have a choice, shouldn't you make the smart choice vs. the emotional choice? Can't really compare an automobile that is sold more on emotion to a locomotive that is sold for utility. For not the first time, I point out that one of the last "Trains Turntable" op-ed essays that Trains Magazine ran, I think in 1999, was my piece proposing an "F40PH Preservation Society," based loosely on the model of the many British class-specific diesel preservation societies. In basic terms, the group would have been a non-profit maintaining, operating, and displaying several Amtrak-compatible and historic (well, eventually, at least!) F40PH's, chartering them as needed for such things as NRHS convention trains, Amtrak-chartered specials (no "we don't have motive power" excuses), or even long-term to the likes of the Ohio Central or Grand Canyon or Napa Valley Wine Train. You want an example? http://www.thedps.co.uk is the one I'm a Life Member of. Emotion: When the DPS was in a frantic fundraising appeal to save but one of the 22 Deltics, it had its technical staff--almost all Napier or BR Deltic specialists--do a hard-nosed, cynical examination of the surviving fleet, based on everything from hours on the power units since heavy overhaul to external skin condition. By chance, all the "best" units were ones named after Northern/Scottish Royal Army regiments, as opposed to the half of the fleet named after racehorses. Emotion still ruled the day, however, and a large faction of the DPS demanded that a "Racehorse" be saved as well. This was countered with a completely separate fundraising appeal called the "Racehorse appeal"--which led a few cynics (myself included) to say, "what, yer gonna place the proceeds on a racehorse and see if yer can win enough for a second loco?" The net result was almost a doubling of the total take, allowing the DPS in 1982 to place substantial sealed tenders for two 3300-hp locos, 55 019 Royal Highland Fusilier (identified as by far and away the best-condition loco) and 55 009 Alycidon (the best of the "racehorse" locos). That wasn't enough for the hardcore fans. They wanted the "first one"-- old British Rail D9000, later 55 022 Royal Scots Grey. Thus arose the D9000 Group. They later tendered for, and got, the target of their efforts. Then they, as the DPS did, started fundraising for spare parts. In the end, they found it easier to tender for a complete loco--55 016 rather than try to pick and choose individual components (not to brag, but the DPS had by then done a rather thorough job of buying the best of the spares, going as far as to snatch up unique tools such as the lifting beam used to lift engine-generator units from the carbodies!). Still wasn't enough. The "superstar" of the Deltics, 55 015 Tulyar, with a splendid paint job and appearances at all the special events masquerading quite a few operating problems, was then picked up by a private individual for private preservation. To top that all off, yet another fellow bought the cab of a seventh Deltic and placed it in his yard! Flash forward several years. Private owner, realizing how deep he's in it, agrees to sell 15 to the DPS, who now has money to buy it from loco hire to the North Yorkshire Moors Railway. Today? Two of the DPS locos have main line capability if needed. The third is emerging from a decades-long down-to-the-frame restoration (see, I told you it was rough). The D9000 was actually on the main line first, but has had some problems staying there as I recall, with the D9000 group going into receivership (bankruptcy to you Yanks) in 2004, and I have read reports that there have been threats to scrap the spare Deltic that the D9000 Group got; last I heard a private owner got D9000 and is about to get 55 016 as well. Oh, and they also own the trailer-mounted nose of 55 008 from that guy's yard as well--comes in handy at train shows, mind you! Oh, and lest we forget, this is all in addition to the one that the National Railway Museum got: 55 002 Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. The purported rationale was the Yorkshire connection in the name to the York museum, but the joke went about that the acronym, KOYLI, was too close to the name of the Museum's then-director, Dr John Coiley! Emotional rationale, anyone? So. Back to the States. (Aw, come on, do I have to?!?) One F40PH at the North Carolina Transportation Museum (and that may have been my fault). One at CSRM (for whatever that's worth). One at Portland, Oregon in good private hands (disregard the paint). Several at GCRY, Tennessee Central and a couple brokers' hands....... and the RR Museum of Pa. wisely passed on an F40PH in favour of a Pennsylvania-built E60CP and a Metroliner. Much of the "pressure" and demand for preservation of "independent" passenger diesels was unfortunately assuaged over the decades, first by Andy Muller purchasing in the mid-1980's two ex-PRR E8's that happened to have been upgraded to HEP by Amtrak (gee--I rode around the Horse Shoe Curve behind those locos in 1987; where are they now? Don't answer, I know--this is a rhetorical question designed to make you think about private ownership...........), and then by Bennett Levin later grabbing the ex-Conrail "Executive E's (hey, two of the three were also Amtrak HEP rebuilds!). I would make the case that if the major American railroads were more amenable to passenger excursions in general (as they seem to be in Britain), we well might be seeing the hat passed for a private lease fleet of F40's. On the other hand, this could well be a "chicken or egg" question--has nobody done so because they don't feel there's a place for them to run, or do the railroads only refuse us because we don't supply locos that happen to fit the standards they wrote to include Amtrak locos? In closing, I shall present a challenge: IF some party already chest-deep in the field--say, Ohio Central, Larry's Truck & Electric, the Grand Canyon RR, some locomotive broker, or an excursion line like Cuyahoga Valley Scenic--were to issue a proposal to start up some "preservation society" or other arrangement whereas the nonprofit would eventually own and operate the locos............ would anyone step up? The NRHS? Amtrak Historical Society? NARP? Or will we be left once again (Steamtown, Blue Mt. and Reading, Paulsen Spence, Dick Jensen, et al) to the vagaries of private ownership, for better or worse?

Author:	Nova55 [ Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/sho ... ight=f40ph

Author:	Catalpa [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
I won't get into whether or not ditch lights change an F40 the original confuration. As to F40s still alive and kicking. don't forget the three that the Music City Star service uses in daily service. Other than the aforementioned ditch lights, no changes from the Amtrak configuration except the substitution of a solid-state event recorder in place of the 8-track tape deck. Also there are a few in short-line service, which have been modified, no question, by the addition of front switching steps. G.F.Payne Baltimore, MD

Author:	RCD [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
I would actually like one with embedded nose mounted ditch lights.

Author:	AlderGulch12 [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
See the Railroad Forums Thread. This has been going on and around for quite some time. Passion, yes. Plan, not so much. I do wish best of luck, but I'll need more sure footing before I invest.

Author:	bbunge [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
Sort of a dumb question, but did any F40PH's do anything really notable; say pulling presidential campaign or other special movements? - Bob

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Author:	Randolph R. Ruiz [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Save the F40PH
Quote: Sort of a dumb question, but did any F40PH's do anything really notable...? It is not a dumb question. There are several criteria for inclusion on the National Register of Historic Places. Satisfying any of these individually is enough for inclusion as long as its integrity is not compromised. Although the National Register should not be the final word in the world of preservation, they have codified the process of identifying things worthy of preservation. Quote: The quality of significance in American history, architecture, archeology, engineering, and culture is present in districts, sites, buildings, structures, and objects that possess integrity of location, design, setting, materials, workmanship, feeling, and association, and: A. That are associated with events that have made a significant contribution to the broad patterns of our history; or B. That are associated with the lives of persons significant in our past; or C. That embody the distinctive characteristics of a type, period, or method of construction, or that represent the work of a master, or that possess high artistic values, or that represent a significant and distinguishable entity whose components may lack individual distinction; or D. That have yielded or may be likely to yield, information important in prehistory or history. I believe that satisfying criterion B below would require a stronger association than having pulled a campaign train. F40PHs were the iconic passenger locomotives in this country for a generation. It is easy to imagine eventually qualifying an intact specimen under criterion C.