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Using China for Steam Overhaul
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26450		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Tom Parkins [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Using China for Steam Overhaul
Have there been any studies or considerations of sending American Locomotives to China for rebuilding, return to service, overhaul, etc? One obvious consideration is the cost of shipping. Of course there would be parts compatibility issues. I guess I'm picturing an American Locomotive with the guts of a QJ. From a preservation standpoint, that may not be good. From an operational standpoint?????

Closely related, has there been consideration to bringing Chinese steam men to the USA?

I'd be interested if any one has examined the economics and other issues.

Tom
Author:  John D [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
Tom-interesting question(s). A recent article in TRAINS magazine had me thinking along similar lines. Specifically, the article was on the Ohio Central steam roster, and the comment about getting all 10 under steam no longer seemed achievable. That got me to thinking:
(1) what about bringing over a (large) team of Chinese steam experts? Yes, for all you skeptics there are visa issues, parts supplies, adequate shop facilities, but beyond that, if you were Jerry Jacobson and had a pretty fair chunk of change, could this work?
(2) what about the recently-furlowed Grand Canyon steam crew?
(3) some years back, there was talk about Polish steam workers coming to the U.S.

So-perhaps, overcoming visa, shop, and/or equipment issues-there are, theoretically, a large amount of qualified folks to possibly achieve Jerry's dream.
Author:  Kelly Anderson [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
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Author:  Les Beckman [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
I have a much better idea. There are a number of museums around that do not have working steam and which could offer its membership as a way to fix up a locomotive from the large Ohio Central roster. The OC could offer some monetary aid and also help, in the form of perhaps something like a two man travelling restoration crew. The OC would get their locomotive restored while the local museum could get to use it for a portion of the time. The museum could even pay a modest stipend (say, 5% of gross revenues when the engine is used) to the OC to help build up a fund to keep this program going. Much better than bringing Chinese crews to the United States I would think. And a chance to get some of the OC's long stored roster out there, where it might become a revenue producer to the owner. Seems to me like a win-win for everyone.

Les
Author:  Randolph R. Ruiz [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
It is an interesting, if not amusing idea.
Quote:
Why wouldn't you want to employ Americans?

I think the reason is that there are a limited number of Americans that are proficient at rebuilding steam engines. It is similar to Crocker's approach to building the Central Pacific, except in the proposed scenario, you are looking to bring in a team of people that have been working on steam their whole lives. All the same, I do not believe you can get work visas for blue collar workers. If you could, you would be required to pay them prevailing wages. This is to prevent employers from exploiting foreign workers at the expense of American jobs.

Shipping an engine to China may be more feasible, then it may come back with valves made of melamine. It may still be more expensive than you would imagine. A lot of efficiencies arise from having a handful of standard steam locomotives duplicated by the thousands. It is all about manufacturing parts on a large scale instead of one-offs.

Speaking of which, I had heard that someone looked into having a new engine built in China to an American design. The quoted price was astronomically high presumably because of all the unique tooling and casting required.
Author:  Ed Walters [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
I would suggest Eastern Europe is probably a better bet - they have recent experience with steam, and I know that preservationists in Western Europe have contracted out work to Poland or the Czech republic in the past and the work has been superb. I think there's less of a culture of "how can we do it cheapest" and more one of "What's the cheapest way we can do it right".
Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
Randolph R. Ruiz wrote:
It is an interesting, if not amusing idea.
Quote:
Why wouldn't you want to employ Americans?

I think the reason is that there are a limited number of Americans that are proficient at rebuilding steam engines. It is similar to Crocker's approach to building the Central Pacific, except in the proposed scenario, you are looking to bring in a team of people that have been working on steam their whole lives...


This sounds like the logical extension of Bush's guest worker plan, hopefully now dead, which I dubbed "Chinaman-in-a-box"…

You design a hotel in pre-fab sections, have them all fabricated in China and shipped. When they get here, you open the first one and all the coolies pour out and assemble the project. When finished, you gather them all up and ship them back.

I think I'd rather take a pass.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
I recall hearing some anecdotal reports of problems with the Polish boilermakers brought over here in the '70s-'80s, more about cultural problems than craftsmanship. Dennis supervised work done in China, and is probably best able to contribute about the probability of having work done there under native supervision, relative to our regulatory standards.

I've been fortunate to have traveled to the UK and Australia, and been invited to work on steam crews in both nations. Versions of English are understandable across national boundaries, and steam is a strong brotherhood bond between cultures. I wonder if it might not be a good idea to start some international exchange program among English speaking developed nations, then expand it further once the bugs are worked out?

dave
Author:  tomgears [ Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
I don't think there is any shortage of people who are able to restore a steam locomotive. There are some specialists out there but there are thousands of boiler repair companies and machine shops that can do most anything that needs done on a steamer. I worked for many years in the power plant industry and I can find a contractor to do anything on a stationary or locomotive boiler. Here in the industrial Northeast it is probably easier than in more rural parts of the country but really the problem is money to pay the bills. Want the K-4 running in just a month? Just fill the tender with $20 bills and I'll show you how to do it. If that boiler was the heart of a plant making a couple of million dollars of product each day it would happen. Do you want boilermakers working one shift? Two? Three? Four? With enough money anything is possible. There will always be more projects than money.
Author:  John D [ Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
My original post was kind of "blue-sky" thinking, i.e. a variation on the "what if Bill Gates were a railfan" theme-i.e. if you're Jerry Jacobson and have a rather large amount of money, can all 10 of your personal steamers be restored, and if so, how?

To Kelly's point, I'd be more than happy to employ just Americans-perhaps my original post was subconsciously influenced by the excellent (IMO) article by Eric Ledbetter some time ago in TRAINS and/or the Jim Wrinn article about why restoring steam is so expensive-there are (apparently) a limited number of qualified entities here in the U.S., hence my "what if" approach.

To Tom's point, yep, fill the tender with $20 bills and (perhaps) anything can be done. I leave it to the experts here (I am not one, nor do I play one on TV, etc) as to whether industrial boiler firms and other existing U.S. companies could get all of JJJ's steam fleet operational in a span of time that would allow all 10 to operate for an unspecified length of time.
Author:  fkrock [ Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
Twenty dollar bills? Don't you mean one-hundred dollar bills?

Why restore more steam locomotives other than as a hobby project for the people doing the work? We have way too many usable steam locomotives today. Most have no place to operate. They're all dressed up with no place to go. Sorry, but operating on Class 1 track (15 mph) is not much of an experience.

The same laws of physics and economics that resulted in steam locomotives being replaced on railroads around the world still apply to locomotives in museums or on tourist railroads. Most cannot build the cost of operating steam into their ticket prices.

We have had a number of examples of steam locomotive operation not being able to pay its own way. Those few that succed usually have something else going for them like spectacular scenery. Just for fun calculate the cost per mile for a ride on one of these lines.

Sorry, fans. Most members of the public don't care what's on the front of the train. Railfan business by itself will not support any kind of train operation.

I'm just trying to be realistic. Please hold the flame throwers.

Fred Krock
Author:  Dave [ Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
fkrock wrote:
Sorry, fans. Most members of the public don't care what's on the front of the train. Railfan business by itself will not support any kind of train operation. Fred Krock


That depends, Fred.......on what you are selling and how you brand yourself. For some tourist railroads, going back in time with steam power is an integral part of their marketing plan. In other cases, steam itself is what is sold without the time machine involved, just as a technological or raw experience aspect of the production. I'm convinced that our inability to define ourselves and provide a detailed and rich evocative experience to our customers while we are out playing train for our own enjoyment has hampered us in some respepcts in terms of our prospering by failing to recognise that their needs and expectations might not be like ours, and developing our products accordingly.

While we do live in a very real universe with economic and physical laws, we do need to create marketable little universes within it to offer.

I like my asbestos jacket - keeps me warm in winter.

dave
Author:  Kelly Anderson [ Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
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Author:  Jim Lundquist [ Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Why restore more steam locomotives
As Fred stated:

"Why restore more steam locomotives other than as a hobby project for the people doing the work? We have way too many usable steam locomotives today. Most have no place to operate. They're all dressed up with no place to go."

So true. Lots of steam but the owners/operators can not justify the expense of running them. Three come immediately to mind: 3751, 2 at Grand Canyon, 622 (?) in Pennsy.
Author:  Txhighballer [ Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using China for Steam Overhaul
The 3751 is more a victim of location. Grand Canyon is a totally different situation,being IMHO, more of a sacrificial lamb than anything else. The Pennsy situation I am not familiar with. The Brits share locomotives,expertise and there are more than 200 steamers in service,many operating on the national system. I understand the differences of there and here,but we also have to be able to find a way to:

a. Find a willing railroad(s) to host the equipment;

b. Expand the ability to do overhauls less expensively;

c. Create a database in which companies and personnell which have the ability to do boiler work, annual inspections, operation, etc and also car work (can't forget that)

d. Create a governing body to oversee it all. Doing this also gives us ( the steam industry) credibility to railroads which might be more willing to entertain steam locomotives.

This might be a good starting point. Leave the egos at the roundhouse door. Look t it this way...if you can help keep 3751,4449, 700, etc running,then they can help you with ol 88 that's been back in the weeds for the last 30 years.
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