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| The urban legends of 565 https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26574 |
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| Author: | Afboone [ Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | The urban legends of 565 |
Doing some research for 565 I’m seeing quite a few legends of parts being buried at Steamtown. Does anyone have first hand knowledge of this? I know where the salt shed is and that is where we found the pilot truck. But it was in a crate. Thanks everyone. |
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| Author: | Dave Crosby [ Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The urban legends of 565 |
Hello Parts were not buried purposfully, but there were parts that were pushed along the ground by a front end loader to make room for the salt shed. At that point mother nature began to take over. I specifically remember parts sticking out of overturned dirt to the right (southwest) side of the shed with weeds starting to wrap around them. I cannot say if they were exhumed after I left or not, but they did sit there for months, if not years in that state. There were also parts set aside in the concrete scrap storage bins adjacent to the office building. There were running gear parts at the very least in that location. Dave Crosby |
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| Author: | Afboone [ Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The urban legends of 565 |
Dave, Thanks. Next time we are up we will look real close to the right side of the shed. That's where we found the pilot truck and the steam dome in a crate with an air compressor. We did find some drive rods marked for 565 on the scrap dock. Steve. |
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| Author: | Richard Glueck [ Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The urban legends of 565 |
What kind of steam locomotive preservation museum has parts of the collection shoved around by a front end loader, placed on the scrap dock, or buried? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "scrap" mean metal going for recycling? I'm not trying to stoke up another Steamtown argument, but I thought preservation was, oddly enough, preservation. Unless we are talking about flue or boiler tubing, one doesn't commonly find steam domes laying about these days. Or have I missed something? |
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| Author: | Afboone [ Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The urban legends of 565 |
Rich, it seems mistakes were made in the past. But the folks up there now are trying to make things right. What they need now are volunteers and folks to write their congressmen and ask that they help with money and hiring at Steamtown. I know if I was in charge of the hiring and the freeze was dropped I think I would be calling out to the guys that just got laid off from the Grand Canyon RR. Steve. |
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| Author: | tim o'm [ Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The urban legends of 565 |
Richard Glueck wrote: What kind of steam locomotive preservation museum has parts of the collection shoved around by a front end loader, placed on the scrap dock, or buried? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "scrap" mean metal going for recycling? Sorry to correct you, but this Scrap dock is an area designated by the DL&W for sorting out old parts that would be scrapped and/or melted down in the foundry of the RR Shops back when they used all the buildings. That area is near the Office and Stores building. Many parts are stored there; Not all are identified as being from one coach, or locomotive or anything else for that matter. Many are just springs, fittings, pipes and other odds and ends. Steamtown's metal that is going for recycling, such as shavings from the milling machines and boring machines, is kept in steel barrels before going to a dumpster. I won't comment on the pushing of earth or parts in the construction of any buildings. I have heard stories, but have witnessed nothing. Steamtown NHS has a lot of stories. |
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| Author: | Jack Powell [ Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The urban legends of 565 |
Steve, You deserve a lot of credit for stirring up interest among your friends in volunteering at Steamtown, and 565 is certainly a worthy candidate for attention. However, to carry Richard's point further, what kind of steam preservation museum approaches the restoration of one of its more significant locomotives in the manner you're describing ? As I understand it, you and your buddies showed up looking for something to do, and were put in charge of the project. Please do not be offended when I ask you this, but is there a written plan? How will the project be managed? You note that "mistakes were made in the past" with this locomotive, but by what measurement or standards are you sure that they are not continuing? As poorly as this situation appears to have been managed over the years, photographs on Youtube and elsewhere highlight even more glaringly the slow but steady rot-down of Steamtown's rolling stock collection, including what were surely its centerpieces, the B&M heavyweight diner and the wooden, arch-doored StJ&LC combine, the sides of which are now apparently falling off. Writing letters to your congressmen will not save these gems, nor will waiting around the next twenty years for funding for a storage facility, if there are even any plans for one. I could never figure out why the three or four most important cars were not put inside the shop buildings years ago, especially since every other steam operation seems able to make do with much less working shop floor than Steamtown apparently needs. But then again, I could never figure out why anyone would build a museum, theatre, etc., in the shape of a roundhouse, while leaving most of the steam engines outside as parking lot ornaments. G.J.C. |
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| Author: | Afboone [ Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The urban legends of 565 |
George, We do have a project manager for the engine. Right now we are trying to figure out what parts we have and if they are still good for use. After that the project manager will come up with a plan to give to the museum curator. That person will sign off on it and the funds to start the work. We will not be making parts due to us not being able to use the equipment, don't know how. But we will be there to help install new parts. Working this way is not uncommon for us we are all Air Force aircraft mechanics so this is just another job. "Mistakes in the past" are being fixed. IMO the biggest was not hiring a "Kelly Anderson" type person to run the museum in the beginning. They did the typical hiring process for any government job. An experience railroad type person would have made all the difference. IMO Talking to employees they have seen a better work environment and concern for the equipment. But with the cut backs by the government on the employee staff they can't assign a team of workers to a piece. They are pulled in every direction everyday and they do the best they can. That's why I tell you to write your congressmen, if we don't complain LOUD, nothing will get done. They have lost half of the staff up there and can't get them replaced. The locomotive shop is only half the staff it should be. Could you see Strasburg operating this way? It's very easy for us to complain with a keyboard but I challenge anybody to come see Steamtown the way I did, a personnel tour, and see what they are up against. That's why I decided to do something, it may not be much but I have to start somewhere. I've said this before the older guys working on the steamers now are getting older and the younger guys are not interested in working on a steamer. I can give you examples of other museums that I tried to volunteer at and don't get call backs because I'm not one of the good ole boys, but I won't. Those museums will sooner or later close due to the lack of people helping out. And that equipment will be sold off. |
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| Author: | robertjohndavis [ Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The urban legends of 565 |
George, The unfortunate history of Steamtown PRE-NPS is that the collection was not well maintained. Your assumption that certain pieces now in decay were once centerpieces is sadly wrong, The fact of the matter is that the collection has always been bigger than time or money could care for. This is a fact often left out in the NPS bashing. Some of the great benefits of the move to Scranton and subsequent events (again that are rarely conveyed in discussions) are: * more of the collection is indoors than ever in the history of the museum * the collection has been rationalized over time, and is smaller and more manageable (believe it or not) * the coach stock is in vastly better condition for excursions * several key pieces are in better shape than they ever were in Vermont Does that erase the fact that more time and money is needed for the other stock? No. But it seems that almost 25 years down the road after the move from Vermont there is a mythical version of what Steamtown was. I remember clearly what it was. In fact, until Don Ball took over, hardly any display pieces were getting paint or sprucing up. Don changed that in small ways, and it was a BIG DEAL back then. So lets remember that the collection we see today was never funded enough to where each piece was a shining example of steam's glory days. Even on the operational side, there were lean years in VT with one steamer or no steamer running. You never had 5 operational steam locos running Strasburg-like schedules. As further evidence of the tremendous investment of time and money needed, of the pieces that left Steamtown during and since the move, a handful are operational and a handful were scrapped, while the others are in various states of hibernation/dissasembly awaiting those same two suitors: time and money. As a frequent visitor to the great field by the river that was Steamtown in VT, I miss it emotionally only because it was the most awesome field of steam a little kid could imagine. I still dream of it. But it was unsustainable. And like most dreams, reality plays a far different tune. Rob |
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| Author: | Afboone [ Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The urban legends of 565 |
Thanks for the words Robert. Let's look at the future and stop living it what could have been. What we have is what we have. I don't want this as another Steamtown debate, so please help me in getting 565 back to the glory she desires! She may never steam again but she does desire to be the center piece of the displays. If you can help great! I'm using this board to help track down urban legends and most importantly PARTS! Maybe what I'm doing we spark someone else to take on a project. Thanks to everyone, Tim, Al Briegel, and Dave for getting me in contact with folks who may know of some locations. Also everyone who got me photos so I can start this project. |
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| Author: | SZuiderveen [ Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The urban legends of 565 |
robertjohndavis wrote: Some of the great benefits of the move to Scranton and subsequent events (again that are rarely conveyed in discussions) are: * * * * * the coach stock is in vastly better condition for excursions * * * * Rob Thank you for pointing this out, Rob. Except for the restoration of CRR of NJ combine 303 and repainting coach exteriors, 90% of this happened between 1985 and 1987 under the management of the Foundation, pre NPS. Of the operating equipment, every sliding window was restored with new weatherstrip, anti-rattle and rebuilt latches; every seat was reupholstered; six trucks totally overhauled with pins, bushings, and brake beams, and another eight coaches had heavy truck brake rigging work done in this two and half year period. I generally do not participate in Steamtown discussions on this board, the memories get me too upset. As an example, I do not think the supporters of repatriating the Camelback were on very firm moral ground while the 565 remained in the condition it was in. But I am proud of the work that the Foundation crew did in the shop between 1984 and 1987, both locomotive and cars; and I would like to point out that most of those folks who were not retained by the NPS have gone on to quite successful careers in both the tourist/historic and professional railroad industires. Steve |
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| Author: | Jack Powell [ Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The urban legends of 565 |
[quote="robertjohndavis"] Your assumption that certain pieces now in decay were once centerpieces is sadly wrong. *** The fact of the matter is that the collection has always been bigger than time or money could care for. This is a fact often left out in the NPS bashing. Rob, I'm not sure what you assume I was assuming, but the fairly condescending tenor of your apologia (i.e., that I'm "sadly wrong") is unwarranted. I did not assert that any objects now in advanced decay had been well-restored or conserved while in Vermont. Is it your position that the most important items in any railroad museum's collection are those things which have been restored or otherwise appear nice? That's an interesting way of approaching what I think most of us would agree is an objective question based on the history and technology each item represents, not to mention rarity. For example, a relatively unmodified heavyweight dining car is an important object on a variety of levels, whether it has shiny paint or rust holes, and whether it was in better or worse shape twenty-five years ago. How the owning museum regards such an item is another question altogether. But if an occasional coat of paint and a prominent display is what makes an object a centerpiece of a collection, regardless of intrinsic merit, then we're right back to my point about those locomotives currently used as parking lot ornaments, and the wisdom of a curatorial decision to rebuild a demolished roundhouse at enormous expense which does not accomodate them. As far as your statement that more of the Steamtown collection is indoors today than ever before, perhaps someone who remembers specifically which items lived in the two Vermont polebarns can weigh in. In purely numerical terms, there can't be all that much difference, and certainly not as much difference as you might expect given the cost per square foot and operating expense of the NPS buildings. Characterizing questions like mine as "NPS bashing" does nothing to advance the discussion, although I kind of get the feeling that you prefer that such discussions not take place at all. Steve, thank you for alleviating my concerns, which I'm relieved that you did not also seem to take so personally, and for your frank and open dialogue. Best of luck with the 565 project, and may your example lead others at Steamtown and elsewhere. GJC |
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| Author: | Dave Crosby [ Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The urban legends of 565 |
As a frequent defender of Steamtown, I am forced to agree with those who are taken aback by the abhorrent treatment of the 565 over the years. It was a constant sore subject with me, and really, there is no defense for it. All I can say is that things are different today than they were 5, 10, 15 years ago and I think for the better. What's done is done and it seems like this is a giant step forward in the right direction. Dave Crosby |
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