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 Post subject: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:38 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 6482
To the Moderators -

Recently a thread was started on RyPN which referenced a video showing a tourist type train operation where an operating rule was obviously broken by one, or more, crew members. An honest question was asked about it. Rather than treating the video and the question as a trainning tool so that remedies could be taken so that future incidents would not occur, there were instead a number of vindicative comments subsequently made. One of the comments was basically, "no harm, no foul". The moderators eventually locked the thread. The comments from certain people, and the moderators reaction, now makes me seriously wonder if RyPN can be the type of open forum that was first envisioned.

Les Beckman


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 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:33 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:03 pm
Posts: 948
Les,

The question was not as troublesome as the individual who presumed to ask it.

The original poster, concealing himself under a fake name to avoid scrutiny, knew very well what occurred in the video he had shot (as original versions of the video in question illustrated.) Not only did the poster know what had occurred in the video, but he pleaded ignorance under the fake name to try and draw attention to it.

Having only a subjective video by which to criticize is unfair, and the parties involved likely have already reacted appropriately without the aid of our rail preservation forum. As a learning tool, this only reinforces the unadulterated necessity for absolute vigilance in railroad operations, regardless of size, schedule, scope, cargo or climate.

Kelly Lynch


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 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:31 pm 

Lets get something straght here, I only have one screen name on RYPN, none others. and I don't know who this traingirl even is. So stop your bull crap!

Len.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6464
Location: southeastern USA
If there's nothing to be gained by using this example as a case study of an industrywide concern, let it rest to be dealt with by those directly involved as they see fit. If it is something that has always happened now and again, and we have already studied it and know how to deal with it, what's to be gained by covering that ground again? If it is a new and unusual problem, when a solution is devised, by all means share that solution for the benefit of us all.

I don't really care who said what - I'm capable of simply not reading drivel posted by some individuals while eagerly anticipating ineresting commentary from others. We can all choose our own poisons......

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:28 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:46 am
Posts: 203
Location: here, there, wherever
I was the one that said no harm no foul. Know why?

Everyone who has ever worked for a railroad raise your hand. If you NEVER, EVER broken a rule (on purpose or not), put your hand down. Yeah, I thought so.

I don't think there was malice intent, just an accident. Happens every day. Maybe I'm misreading your tone, Les, but there isn't too much to learn from that video. Someone blew a meet. you could argue whether there was inattention to duty, correct orders, or simple forgetfulness until we're blue in the face. But since we're not there, we're just spitting into the wind.

But what do I know, I just spend every waking hour out here.


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 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:38 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Northern Illinois
I'll take it back one step further… We only presume that someone blew a meet. Without being privy to whatever operating authority the crew had, we can't say anything else. We also don't know (although I didn't see the video) that this move wasn't made under flag protection. So, it seems there really isn't much to talk about.

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Dennis Storzek


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 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2611
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Well, what if the railroad was under yard limits rules? Wouldn't that be exactly what's supposed to happen? Railfans aren't FRA. Good thing too.

I wholeheartedly agree with the observation "he who is without sin cast the first stone"... except I would expect he who is without sin also is without experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:46 pm 

When I was taping 7312 coming into the station for the first trip at 12:30pm. I ask a friend of mind to watch my camera as I went to buy a ticket for the train. He was talking on his Cell phone, telling his wife he would be home earlier because they weren't running a 4:30pm. train. He works with strasburg and the RR Museum of PA.
If you want to hear what he is saying , watch Part Two of Trains & Troops. As someone stated over on railfan.net that all I care about is rates and views, that is untrue. What I care about is safty first!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7yShh-Aozs

Len.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:54 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:49 am
Posts: 773
At this time it is not productive to ourselves or them to be making judgements. I'm sure the situation has been investigated and the proper disipline has been enforced. I'm sure events like this have happened everywhere. Things happen and you breathe a sigh of relief when all that happens is some obvious embarrasment of the offending crew. The thing to remember is no one was hurt and nothing was damaged except some egos. I would say that was the best outcome from a potentially serious situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:56 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 12151
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Here's a nice, general guideline.

It's generally fairly useless to shine a bright spotlight one ONE particular, semi-innocuous event such as that depicted in the video that started this discussion. As stated, this will get handled internally--and we KNOW it will, because that is what we expect of the professional outfit involved.

IF we were seeing stuff like this on a regular basis at a particular operation, OR we were seeing something consistently unsafe or questionable--bad track, slovenly equipment maintenance, etc.--THEN we as a group have an obligation to call such questionable practices/operations as we see them. Remember the steam tractor that exploded at Medina, Ohio a few years ago, killing some innocent folks as well as the owner? That is the kind of situation we have to avoid, if possible.

I've been on a train over a line that had no business at the time having anything bigger than a Fairmount speeder--if that--on it. I held my tongue and combed my hair back down. That line now has proper conditions and a great opportunity for other riders today. I've been on a train that came within literally inches of a HARD collision with another train. That operation was, and still is, one of the most professional out there, and they stopped everything for 20 minutes to clear up the miscommunications. I've been one of the "rescuers" when a passenger train derailed, and after ascertaining no injuries and a stable situation until a rescue train came for the passengers, I took lots of photos. Instead of posting them online or sending them to the magazines, I ran to a one-hour lab and had an extra set of photos made up for the railroad's officials for their internal investigation.

One of the few operations/operators where I would have "blown a whistle" years ago did it for me by having a crownsheet failure. What was left of that operation was auctioned off a few weeks ago, and I'm betting that I wasn't the only one breathing a sigh of relief along with the twinge of regret as they auctioned off the remains.

So, let's think about this for a minute. Was the aforementioned video highlighting a dire need for centralized traffic control or Positive Train Control on the Strasburg RR--and, by extension, the WK&S, EBT, C&TS, Grand Canyon, W&W, Conway Scenic, WW&F, Whitewater Valley, Cass, Stone Mountain, Tweetsie, ad nauseaum? Congratulations, you've just shut down the entire tourist railroad industry. So, might there be another reason? Was there anything for us to learn in that video? Maybe in Railroading 101, but not here. So, what else? Ego trip, animosity towards a particular operator, personal glory, page views?


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 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:07 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:46 am
Posts: 203
Location: here, there, wherever
Reason for the video? "hey lookie here, we caught a railroad(er) messing up! hee hee har har. " Some "fans" take pleasure in that sort of thing, thinking they know better.

Watching that video reminds me of the Mexican standoff I had once. New dispatcher in training, and first day of a brand new track in a yard. The track didn't have circuits in it yet. No big deal, we both had restricting signals, and we stopped within range of vision. Luckily another train was nearby to watch our shove out... it is funny now, but wasn't so when it was happening and we were staring at a headlight on our track!

PS> from what I've heard, I think Strasburg still uses orders, and isn't all yard limits.


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 Post subject: Lenny....
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:06 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:51 pm
Posts: 219
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
I almost hate to reply to this since RYPN is the most professional, and informational web board that I've ever found on the internet, but I must interject.

Mr. Leonard Shaner has a lot of railroad knowledge, knows a lot of people and has some nice videos, but he seems to have an "internet problem". Specifically, he adopts multiple personas and irritates a lot of people. He's the only person that I've ever seen be kicked off of multiple railroad web boards, and he singlehandedly destroyed a very active R&N board on one site. I bet that Lenny is a nice guy in person, and I really enjoy his youtube videos, but he's a troll on internet web boards.

Ironically, he's managed to become the moderator on several sub topics. I still haven't figured that one out.

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Jim Evans


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 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:01 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:58 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Grand Haven, MI
Even if this video was not posted to cause harm, it still very well may cause harm.

I think this also somewhat relates to what we know as the rumor-mill and how it can cause issues for professional operations. Recently on another board, someone accused SRI of stealing rolling stock from another preservation group. The deal was 100% legit, yet it had some people (even one of our fellow volunteers) confused. People spouting off random accusations without knowing the facts, (or in this case posting a video with a title such as 'near miss', then giving names of crew, etc...) can cause a great deal of harm to our greater cause.

I am going to post a couple quotes from the other board, since I think SRI's Director, T.J. Gaffney, has done an excellent job of explaining what kind of harm stuff like this can do.

After a poster said that AA #2838 was stolen by us, this is the response (just to give you a bigger picture for the next quote)
Quote:
NOTHING was stolen from Bluewater NRHS. Period. The C&O gondola, GTW Bunk Car and Caboose were all acquired through a PAID transfer from SRI to Bluewater. The Caboose was restored with funding by a grant from the Krauss Foundation of N.C.; The Bunk Car by a Grant from the NRHS National and the efforts of a BSA Eagle Scout Candidate; former CMO Barney Gramling and myself, with funding from SteamSpecials/ HTP restored the C&O/ PM Gondola.

I would be MORE than HAPPY to present the contract that took place at the time of transaction for anyone else who wishes to throw wild accusations.

The fact that SRI has been able to restore all of these cars in less than eleven months, after they sat for many years in Saginaw, speaks to EXACTLY why this transfer was done by Bluewater NRHS and SRI. When AA #2838 arrived here, all of its windows were broken out, steel need to be replaced, all window frames had been improperly glued to the sides of the car so they couldn't move, and the interior was gutted. Our volunteers, led by Robert Marsh and Fred Stevens, spent thousands of hours directing others restoring this piece of Michigan Railroad History.

Both Bluewater NRHS and SRI have had a long standing relationship. I would hope this posters comments would not effect that. If their are members of Bluewater NRHS who are taking issue with this, I might suggest you talk to those who were in charge at the time (October 2007), and who brought forth the suggestion to take these cars because they were being moved out of the Saginaw Roundhouse. Or more importantly, if they wanted these saved or restored by Bluewater, they should have been out there over the last twenty years trying help Harold Frye and Bill Harman work on these cars --- both gentleman have had their hands full for many years trying to take care of the passenger car fleet alone with an ever dwindling group of people trying to help them do so.

It just blows my mind that someone would, in this day and age of scrapping of equipment left and right because of high steel prices and lack of maintenance and narrowing of collections, attack a group for actually TAKING CHARGE and restoring equipment.


After that, here is what I think does a good job of explaining the rumor mill, and the harm it causes:

Quote:
Near as I can tell in the close to two years I've been here the rough break down is something like 45% rumor-mill, 45% ego-stroking, and 10% actually getting things that need to be done to keep things afloat and moving forward (little things like grant-writing, bill paying, track repair, car repair, loco repair, running trains, updating the website,....). Sadly, in my experience, that's pretty standard in both the Non-profit and tourist rail worlds.

The main difference is this; when rumors get started in the business world, they often lead to things like runs on banks, business disruption, etc., which leads to reprimands or the firing of the person that starts them. We don't have that luxury. And while you wish to ignore such things, in the blog-based world of the 21st Century, if you don't immediately answer this kind of thing (meant in harm or not), the rumor can and does do serious damage.

Case in point --- I/ we took some real hits this past April for being "too sensitive" and "you can't take a joke" for the "1225 moves to Grand Rapids" thing. I got the concept, and so did many others, as a joke. Unfortunately, several didn't --- and I spent the next week or so explaining to people who wanted to cancel Excursion tickets they had purchased and the staff of the railroad when ran over that someone meant this as a joke; and I'm sorry if it makes me sensitive, but the time wasted doing so tends to tork you off a bit. So several people think I'm a jerk because of my reaction, and jump on me and SRI, and that's fine --- just understand when we are less interested after that to post things we are doing, etc. so that we don't have to deal with those things as much in the future.

Again, to be fair, 90% of the people don't realize the kind of damage rumors can do, and you have to be careful because whether you may personally wish to cause severe bodily harm to the people who have nothing better to do than take away much needed (and in short supply) time to keep, say, a 1941-Lima Berkshire running in the 21st century, the reality is that you don't want your own personal feelings to reflect back on the place you work for. I take Matt at his word that an error happened; but again, I was getting emails and calls that indicated that SRI was "trying to destroy Bluewater," and "what kind of jerks are we," etc. Those things tend to chasten you against the idea of posting anything on a board or the net --- and as many know, I used to post quite a bit (especially on the Rail History portion). It was equally bad that everyone got on the guy even after he admitted the mistake and explained the situation --- that's not better guys, that's just shifting the situation.

Like any business, it takes a great deal of time, money and effort on the part of the employees (and in our case) volunteers to continue to make things go, doubly so in what is probably the toughest economy anyone has seen since the great depression. Time is in short supply for EVERYONE these days; and that includes all of us (volunteers and staff alike) at SRI. You'll find the same is true at the Huck, the Ford, and yes, ALL the railroads out there. Rumor-mill chasing just plain sucks.

Now, this over-paid Director who has nothing better to do then hassle raifans and ruin everyone's fun (remember the April Fools "joke"?) has to go help his CMO and volunteers install the last 190 of 1000 ties they have spent much of the year installing on the St. Charles Sub (with the help and permission of GLC --- who gives us opportunities other railroads would never think of, and we are eternally grateful for).


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 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:33 pm 

I took down the video last night , from a request of an employee of strasburg, He stated he "wasn't caring that it was up, but that the rail fan world has so much hate for you and your videos", He also stated "he was glad I caught what happen, because it was very useful in what really happen". He ask if I wouldn't revile his name. I agreed.

So Moderator please lock this thread.

Thank you,
Len.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Operations criticism?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2611
Location: S.F. Bay Area
And to put a little contextual backfill onto the above-quoted about Michigan rails...

SRI's primary mission is a PM 1225, a huge mainline steam locomotive that needs about 20 mainline-grade coaches and a decent mainline.

Bluewater's primary mission is to preserve about 20 coaches in mainline-ready condition and find engines to pull them.

And LSI's primary mission is to maintain a mainline railroad.

To say they're "out to get each other" is laughable. That's like saying peanut butter is out to get jelly. Next we'll be hearing they have a feud with bread!


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