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 Post subject: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/ ... 8733.story

Long story short: Plan to expand a bike trail through a 4350-foot ex-WM tunnel may be thwarted by the presence of hibernating endangered bats.

Imagine if this were a proposed excursion operation--or a tunnel on the EBT, or some similar operational possibility............


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 Post subject: Re: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:55 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
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I doubt that the current bat habits of using that tunnel would be impacted at all by bicycle traffic. They are just not that easily disturbed when hanging at night or hibernating for longer periods. The deep copper mines up in Michigan are full of bats if they can get in. Up until recently, many of these mines were somewhat open. Around dusk near an open mineshaft, you could look up into the sky and see thousands of bats swarming around. Going into such a mineshaft, you might find walls in some areas with sleeping bats packed in solid masses like a wall of fur. There has recently been a move to seal up all the mines, but provisions are being included to allow bat entry and exit while preventing any humans or other animals from doing so. They are called bat doors.

If bats like that railroad tunnel as it is, they will not be dissuaded by bicycle traffic. The only thing that the elimination of bicycle traffic would do is allow the portals to be mostly closed off to provide better shelter. I suggest they leave the tunnel open for bicycle traffic, and build some bat shelter details into the roof structure to give the bats more warmth and shelter. If bats like it now, they will be attracted in even larger numbers if you add shelter or bat houses in the ceiling. Let the people ride through it. I think the bat usage would be an attractive and interesting feature in addition to the tunnel itself.


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 Post subject: Re: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4773
Location: Maine
On the other hand, if you have spoken to anyone familiar with bat habitat, there are two additional considerations; guano and urine. Depending on the number of bats living in the tunnel, a steady rain of bat urine might deter some bike riders, and the amount of bat guano (poop) could be like a layer of cinders around the ankles. The average "little brown bat" of the northeast, eats 1000 times its weight in insects on a good summer night. Impressed? You should be! Up here in Maine, we have had houses where the bats in residence have layered the attics with so much guano, professionals have had to come in and remove it, since the weight was straining the joists.
Thanks to public education, you see bat houses being sold in nurseries, at roadside stands, and other locations. Without the, the insect population would be overwhelming.

Thus endeth today's lesson. There will be a quiz next period.

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 Post subject: Re: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:08 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1543
That is a good point. I am familiar with what bats leave behind. I have a large screened ventilation opening high on both gable ends of my house. The breeze always moves in the same direction through them. Bats love the discharge opening with its warmed breeze coming out of the attic space. It is about 3’ X 3’ so a large number of bats are inclined to hang there overnight on that screen. They can develop a serious stain coming down the side of the house. I have found no way to discourage them other than directing a 150-watt spotlight onto that screen all night, but that does not seem like a good solution.

For that tunnel, you would almost need a waste management system that would direct bat guano and urine into conveyor troughs that could be operated from time to time to carry out the waste. I have heard that large quantities of bat guano can be quite toxic to humans, so you would almost have a liability issue inviting bicyclists to ride through a bat house tunnel. Besides that possible health hazard, you would have the issue of some peoples’ fear of bats. I hear they can get stuck in your hair.


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 Post subject: Re: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:15 pm
Posts: 1502
Location: Henderson Nevada
A couple of thoughts...

A train using a train tunnel might not need the environmental review which would block usage... (as needed to convert it to a bike tunnel) in a sense it is already a railroad tunnel, so the railroad use might continue...

As for bats, they are everywhere... we have them at our site in the blacksmith shop and other buildings... In the blacksmith shop we have tried hanging a large diaper under the bats, without success. In most colonies there are a few bats... not the thousands found in some mines and tunnels.

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 Post subject: Re: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:39 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:55 pm
Posts: 269
Location: San Diego area
Back in about 1997, when we were running our SP ten-wheeler, #2353, we took an evening trip to Tecate, Mexico. It is about 14 miles from Campo to Tecate, down hill, at about a 1.2% grade. The US/Mexico border is at about the half-way point, and is inside a 600 ft long tunnel. We'd only been running 2353 for about a year, so none of our crew were what you'd call really experienced in running steam. Even less experience in running at night. I should also mention that at that time, the part of the line between Campo and Tecate saw very infrequent use.

Well, no problems going down to Tecate. Coming back, up the hill, things were going quite well. We went through one tunnel with no difficulty. But.... partway through the "International Tunnel," suddenly major wheel slip! Real fun for the fireman on this oil-burner. The engineer backed down a little, started up again, sanding, more slip. Next try, we got through the slippery part, and the rest of the trip went fine.

The next day, some of our guys took a speeder down to the tunnel to see what the problem was. Found a nice colony of bats roosting overhead in the middle of the tunnel. I guess that proves that the old saying about something being slippery-er than s... is true!

When the use of the tunnel increased, the bats left, although we usually scare out a few owls when we enter the tunnel.


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 Post subject: Re: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:47 pm 

Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 4:22 pm
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Location: Colorado Springs, CO
The other health hazard is the fact that bats can be carriers of Rabies.......


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 Post subject: Re: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:40 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:50 am
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On the Morehead and North Fork Railroad, there were three tunnels. One was Clack Mountain Tunnel appox.1370 feet long. When the road department studied reworking US 519, they explored daylighting the tunnel and putting the road through it. Upon futher inspection of the tunnel, it seems that there were some residents that had moved in since the railroad had quite using it 1934. These residents are the "Indiana Brown Bat". From what I have heard, they are on the indangered list but I do not know this for certain.
Any way, they did not use the tunnel but re worked the road.

JD Johnson, Morehead and North Fork Railroad Historian


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 Post subject: Re: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:42 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
Rabies is very uncommon in bats. Rabies has been found in rare cases, but since bats feed on insects, the transmission is unlikely. If a carrier bites a bat, it is generally curtains for the bat, since their bones structure is so light. The south American vampire bat is the only species I know of that collects a blood meal from a warm blooded critter. And no, bats don't fly into women's hair to nest! If we were all "blind as a bats", we wouldn't need headlights on locomotives.
I realize we are getting away from the subject of railway preservation, but it is an interesting thread, yes?

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 Post subject: Re: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:38 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:59 pm
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Richard Glueck wrote:
The south American vampire bat is the only species I know of that collects a blood meal from a warm blooded critter.


The Center for Disease Control has a web page on bat rabies http://www.cdc.gov/RABIES/bats.html. It puts the whole issue in good perspective.

The only comment on Richard's post is that bats may bite people for other reasons besides seeking a blood meal. Hence one should not assume that North American bats do not bite. They do, and the CDC says that they are the most common cause of human rabies cases in this country.


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 Post subject: Re: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:22 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
Who am I to disagree with the CDC? I still have my doubts, but prudence (whoever she is) dictates erring onthe safe side. We should all keep our mucky paws off wild animals.

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 Post subject: Re: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:43 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
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I have nothing against bats, but a lot of people are freaked out by them. Generally, they have always seemed rather controversial. They have often been regarded as a nuisance due to their tendency to infest attics if they can get in. But I have noticed a particular rising status lately bestowed onto bats by people who regulate and protect animals. Bats haven’t reached dolphin or whale status yet, but they seem to be headed that way.

I don’t know how often they carry rabies, but I would certainly do everything possible to avoid getting bitten by one. If you look at them close, they have a face like a little bear. And if you handle them with gloves you can see that they seem to be very inclined to bite when they feel threatened. Their teeth are so tiny and sharp that a person could be bitten and not know it. I assume that they would never fly into a person and bite, but I can’t prove that. With their radar, they are highly inclined to not accidentally fly into things. Oddly enough though, even with their radar, Grackles will catch them in flight and eat them.


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 Post subject: Re: A tunnel to drive you batty!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:37 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
Posts: 1755
Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
Is the bats' guano commercially valuable enough to be a cash "crop" to the lucky tourist line that can encourage them to roost in their tunnel?


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